Climate Change and Renewable Energy News and Discussion

dingyibvs

Junior Member
Do we know anything about fifth-gen nuclear reactors? At this time we should at least have some idea of what is going to be developed in the future

Honestly, 4th gen reactors are really 2nd or 3rd gen. 1st gen are really just prototypes, 2nd gen is the real deal. 3rd gen are just 2nd gen upgraded with some newer tech, but they all operate on the same concepts as 2nd gen. The process is still reactor heating up pressurized water, then the heat drives a steam turbine to generate electricity.

4th gen is where we have some real change. Thorium MSR, in its complete form, is so far away and has so many advantages over other 4th gen reactors that it can pretty much be considered a new generation by itself.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Honestly, 4th gen reactors are really 2nd or 3rd gen. 1st gen are really just prototypes, 2nd gen is the real deal. 3rd gen are just 2nd gen upgraded with some newer tech, but they all operate on the same concepts as 2nd gen. The process is still reactor heating up pressurized water, then the heat drives a steam turbine to generate electricity.

4th gen is where we have some real change. Thorium MSR, in its complete form, is so far away and has so many advantages over other 4th gen reactors that it can pretty much be considered a new generation by itself.

What are the pros/cons of a Thorium MSR versus a high-temperature pebble bed?
From what I can see, a pebble bed has a higher fluid operating temperature (and is therefore more efficient?)

Plus the first commercial scale 210MW pebble bed reactor was just connected to the grid in China.
 

dingyibvs

Junior Member
What are the pros/cons of a Thorium MSR versus a high-temperature pebble bed?
From what I can see, a pebble bed has a higher fluid operating temperature (and is therefore more efficient?)

Plus the first commercial scale 210MW pebble bed reactor was just connected to the grid in China.
There are really no cons besides the technical difficulty. It's very hard to keep ~600C molten salt contained for 40-80 years within a reactor, even more difficult to have a self-sustaining Thorium cycle (currently you need to add some Uranium to keep the cycle going).

The advantages are numerous, but safety is number one. HTGC reactors replaces the primary coolant (i.e. the fluid/gas that directly absorb the heat the reactor produces), which until now is primarily pressurized water, with pressurized gas. This means that if there's containment failure, the reactor can explode. In order to reduce the risk of it, very large and sturdy containment vessels are needed, and this is actually one of the major reasons why nuclear reactors are so expensive. MSRs operate at near atmospheric pressure. If containment fails, the liquid leaks out, cools, and solidifies instead of exploding catastrophically (e.g. Chernobyl, Fukushima). This also allows the containment vessel to be much smaller, and possibly a lot cheaper, since the issue is more with finding the right material rather than building gigantic steel and concrete containment vessels.

There's also a passive safety feature for MSRs, which is that if a reactor is out of control and excessive heat is released, the mixture of molten salt and fissile material expands and reactivity goes down, essentially a negative feedback loop. This is because in a MSR the fissile material is "dissolved" and mixed into the primary coolant, so the fissile material will be further apart and thus less likely to maintain a chain reaction when the coolant expands.

Since the fissile material is mixed into the primary coolant, i.e. it exists in fluid rather than solid or gas form, it's also very easy to separate the various fuels and fission products chemically, so the "spent fuel" can be easily reprocessed. Reprocessing a spent pebble would be much more difficult as it's an intricately designed multi-layer and multi-component solid pebble.

And of course, using Thorium as opposed to Uranium as a fuel carries its own advantages. Thorium is about 3x more plentiful, and specifically for China it not only has a large supply of it (not the largest in the world by far, but a lot more than Uranium), it's also a common and currently discarded byproduct of rare earth mining. More than that, only 0.3% of Uranium is actually fissile U235, the rest is non-fissile U238. The concentration needs to be increased via centrifugation to 5-20% for most commercial reactors (>90% for nuclear weapons and some nuclear sub reactors). A Thorium reactor, in its final form, can utilize 90% of the initial Thorium. We're pretty far from that though so it's just a theoretical advantage for the next few decades. The intermediary and byproducts are much harder to make into nuclear weapons, which reduces proliferation risk when exported as a commercial products. That's obviously a disadvantage if you actually want it to make nuclear weapons, one of the reasons this tech has been ignored for so long.

These are just some of the basics, we've got a loooong way to go to make it reality. The current Gen IV tech, particularly HTGC reactors and Fast Sodium Reactors are pretty good, long overdue upgrades over Gen I-III tech.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
There are really no cons besides the technical difficulty. It's very hard to keep ~600C molten salt contained for 40-80 years within a reactor, even more difficult to have a self-sustaining Thorium cycle (currently you need to add some Uranium to keep the cycle going).

The advantages are numerous, but safety is number one. HTGC reactors replaces the primary coolant (i.e. the fluid/gas that directly absorb the heat the reactor produces), which until now is primarily pressurized water, with pressurized gas. This means that if there's containment failure, the reactor can explode. In order to reduce the risk of it, very large and sturdy containment vessels are needed, and this is actually one of the major reasons why nuclear reactors are so expensive. MSRs operate at near atmospheric pressure. If containment fails, the liquid leaks out, cools, and solidifies instead of exploding catastrophically (e.g. Chernobyl, Fukushima). This also allows the containment vessel to be much smaller, and possibly a lot cheaper, since the issue is more with finding the right material rather than building gigantic steel and concrete containment vessels.

There's also a passive safety feature for MSRs, which is that if a reactor is out of control and excessive heat is released, the mixture of molten salt and fissile material expands and reactivity goes down, essentially a negative feedback loop. This is because in a MSR the fissile material is "dissolved" and mixed into the primary coolant, so the fissile material will be further apart and thus less likely to maintain a chain reaction when the coolant expands.

Since the fissile material is mixed into the primary coolant, i.e. it exists in fluid rather than solid or gas form, it's also very easy to separate the various fuels and fission products chemically, so the "spent fuel" can be easily reprocessed. Reprocessing a spent pebble would be much more difficult as it's an intricately designed multi-layer and multi-component solid pebble.

And of course, using Thorium as opposed to Uranium as a fuel carries its own advantages. Thorium is about 3x more plentiful, and specifically for China it not only has a large supply of it (not the largest in the world by far, but a lot more than Uranium), it's also a common and currently discarded byproduct of rare earth mining. More than that, only 0.3% of Uranium is actually fissile U235, the rest is non-fissile U238. The concentration needs to be increased via centrifugation to 5-20% for most commercial reactors (>90% for nuclear weapons and some nuclear sub reactors). A Thorium reactor, in its final form, can utilize 90% of the initial Thorium. We're pretty far from that though so it's just a theoretical advantage for the next few decades. The intermediary and byproducts are much harder to make into nuclear weapons, which reduces proliferation risk when exported as a commercial products. That's obviously a disadvantage if you actually want it to make nuclear weapons, one of the reasons this tech has been ignored for so long.

These are just some of the basics, we've got a loooong way to go to make it reality. The current Gen IV tech, particularly HTGC reactors and Fast Sodium Reactors are pretty good, long overdue upgrades over Gen I-III tech.

Gen IV Pebble bed reactors have the same advantages in terms of passive safety and are also unable to explode.
In their case, the (non-radioactive) coolant helium gas can't explode, and the pebbles cool down by themselves if there is a loss of coolant.

I'm not too concerned about reprocessing because it is inherently very expensive and inefficient.
In any case, China has ample remote desert to store spent pebbles for decades.

As for the fuel, the pebbles are currently made from Uranium, but originally Thorium was supposed to be used.

Note the first grid-scale pebble bed reactor has just been connected to the Chinese electricity grid. So Gen IV reactors are already here.

The cost is $5000/MW for the first pebble bed reactor, but the cost will drop in the future.
That compares with less than $2000/MW for the latest Gen III reactors in China.
 

dingyibvs

Junior Member
Gen IV Pebble bed reactors have the same advantages in terms of passive safety and are also unable to explode.
In their case, the (non-radioactive) coolant helium gas can't explode, and the pebbles cool down by themselves if there is a loss of coolant.

I'm not too concerned about reprocessing because it is inherently very expensive and inefficient.
In any case, China has ample remote desert to store spent pebbles for decades.

As for the fuel, the pebbles are currently made from Uranium, but originally Thorium was supposed to be used.

Note the first grid-scale pebble bed reactor has just been connected to the Chinese electricity grid. So Gen IV reactors are already here.

The cost is $5000/MW for the first pebble bed reactor, but the cost will drop in the future.
That compares with less than $2000/MW for the latest Gen III reactors in China.
The first part is not true. While Helium can't ignite, it's under high pressure. If there's a crack in the containment vessel it can explode as the pressure is released. Also, reprocessing can be very simple, streamlined, and cheap when the fission products are in a solution such as in a MSR when compared to being in solid form such as in a pebble or a rod. Admittedly though, this advantage in reprocessing is both theoretical and unnecessary currently as both fuel cost and security of supply are not big issues currently.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
The first part is not true. While Helium can't ignite, it's under high pressure. If there's a crack in the containment vessel it can explode as the pressure is released. Also, reprocessing can be very simple, streamlined, and cheap when the fission products are in a solution such as in a MSR when compared to being in solid form such as in a pebble or a rod. Admittedly though, this advantage in reprocessing is both theoretical and unnecessary currently as both fuel cost and security of supply are not big issues currently.

The helium in the pebble-bed reactor is pressurised at 7MPa.

Hydrogen tanks in consumer automotive cars operate at the same pressure.
When these tanks are shot with a bullet, the tank doesn't explode.
The hydrogen just leaks out.
So we can expect a similar level of engineering for a Pebble Bed Reactor.

And remember that no one has even built a prototype of a Molten Salt Reactor, so we don't know if it is even feasible yet in terms of technology or cost.

In comparison, the first commercial-scale pebble bed reactors are now running and the construction costs are acceptable, given that it is a completely new reactor design.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Back in 2019, there was an estimate that for US electricity production to switch to 95% renewables (mainly solar/wind), an electricity storage battery cost of $150/KWh is required to be competitive.
For the US to switch to 100% renewables (mainly solar/wing), a battery cost of $20/KWh is required.

In 2019 battery costs were $143/KWh, but they've dropped significantly since then to:

2021
$115/KWh (Tesla - Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminium Oxide)
$99/KWh (BYD blade - Lithium Ferrous Phosphate)

2022
$77/KWh (2022 CATL - Sodium ion). But estimated to drop to $40/KWh with mass production a year later.

Cost reductions due to new battery chemistries have been far greater than previously envisaged by analysts just 2 years ago, and a figure of $20/KWh is within reach in 5 years time.

It means new nuclear reactors for electricity may not be cost-competitive against [renewables+storage].

As for pebble bed reactors, if they can be dropped in to replace coal boilers in existing coal electricity plants, I suspect they will be cheaper than the combination of [renewables+storage] because they can reuse all the existing infrastructure like electricity generators and transmission lines which would otherwise have to be built.

The other possible use would be for district heating as it should be more efficient than heating with electricity, gas or coal.



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dingyibvs

Junior Member
The helium in the pebble-bed reactor is pressurised at 7MPa.

Hydrogen tanks in consumer automotive cars operate at the same pressure.
When these tanks are shot with a bullet, the tank doesn't explode.
The hydrogen just leaks out.
So we can expect a similar level of engineering for a Pebble Bed Reactor.

And remember that no one has even built a prototype of a Molten Salt Reactor, so we don't know if it is even feasible yet in terms of technology or cost.

In comparison, the first commercial-scale pebble bed reactors are now running and the construction costs are acceptable, given that it is a completely new reactor design.

That's more or less semantics. The pressure differential will be so great that radioactive material will be spewed out far and wide along with the inert Helium.

As for MSR, there was in fact one constructed by ORNL many decades ago, though it used Uranium. And I'm sure you've read about the one China recently built which uses a combination of Thorium and Uranium.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
That's more or less semantics. The pressure differential will be so great that radioactive material will be spewed out far and wide along with the inert Helium.

I doubt the pressure is sufficient to force the pebbles to spew out.
Remember that hydrogen gas will flow though a bullet-sized hole of a punctured hydrogen tank.
And there are a lot more air gaps between the pebbles inside a reactor than a bullet hole.

And if the pressure vessel of a Molten Salt Reactor is breached, wouldn't the radioactive salt leak out as well?

As for MSR, there was in fact one constructed by ORNL many decades ago, though it used Uranium. And I'm sure you've read about the one China recently built which uses a combination of Thorium and Uranium.

The fact remains that no Molten Salt Reactors with Thorium have ever been built and operated. So you're looking at another 10+ years of development and testing before a commercial design is available.
 

dingyibvs

Junior Member
I doubt the pressure is sufficient to force the pebbles to spew out.
Remember that hydrogen gas will flow though a bullet-sized hole of a punctured hydrogen tank.
And there are a lot more air gaps between the pebbles inside a reactor than a bullet hole.

And if the pressure vessel of a Molten Salt Reactor is breached, wouldn't the radioactive salt leak out as well?



The fact remains that no Molten Salt Reactors with Thorium have ever been built and operated. So you're looking at another 10+ years of development and testing before a commercial design is available.

The timing is definitely true, it's gonna be a while before we get a commercial TMSR, even longer for one that runs entirely on Thorium. The radioactive salt would leak out from a MSR but it won't get far as it's a liquid under close to atmospheric pressure.
 
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