Chinese UCAV/CCA/flying wing drones (ISR, A2A, A2G)

Deino

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The Turks have been flying the Anka-3 for a long time, the same thing^



Please not again this Turkish "we have too" contest! While indeed impressive, the Anka and the GJ-11 are not really comparable both in timeline - the Dark Sword was flying long before - almost 10 years before - and also size-wise the GJ-11 is a different class.
 

ougoah

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The Turks have been flying the Anka-3 for a long time, the same thing^


This is a prototype. GJ-11's prototype - Sharp Sword program, was flown at least as far back as 2013. That makes it 10 years earlier to maiden flight compared to Anka-3's prototype. Anka-3 remains as a prototype while the GJ-11 reached service as far back as 2019.

BS to everyone saying 2022. Even Chinese official recognition of GJ-11 service puts its introduction at 2019. Chinese official recognition of a platform reaching service has always been after the platform has reached service. I challenge anyone to give me one example of this not being the case.

J-10 reached service about 2 years before officially recognised by China. J-20 reached service about a year before officially being recognised by China. China is not India, showing off powerpoints and making wild claims. This forum still insists on the whole GJ-11 reaching service in recent years despite 2019 parade officially declaring the GJ-11 early units having reached service. They just refined it further and further and the recent Tibetan theatre GJ-11 are simply new blocks of GJ-11.

You guys know what happened with the J-10? It reached service initially as the "J-10". Years later when China officially declared J-10 service in PLAAF, it was the J-10A model. There were around 20 units of J-10 built before the slightly improved J-10A which we can consider as the mass production version.

Same exact thing with J-20. First reached service as "J-20" using AL-31FN series. A dozen or two of that block was introduced and built to refine the manufacturing for mass production and introduce as LRIP into PLAAF service for training and other refinement. Promptly followed by "J-20A" using WS-10B/C powerplant. Only recently did we get a clarification on J-20's official suffix where they basically merged the J-20 and "J-20A". Humpback J-20 which would be the third distinct block is officially known as J-20A.

Same thing with GJ-11. The more modern ones we're seeing are simply the refined and mass produced ones.

What's more is that Anka-3's prototype flew with a AL-322 engine with a max developed thrust of around 40KN wet. The 2013 Sharp Sword prototype flew with a WS-13 engine developing around 80KN wet. These two aircrafts are about as comparable as a F-5 and F-15.

Not to mention my statement didn't count prototypes or any UAV that didn't reach service like the X-47B.

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GJ-11 is the world's first and only stealth strike UAV in active duty. I'm not counting S-70 because it appears to honestly be an Amarta deal where they show off the product well before it's actually completed and/or ready. That would put it around 2013-2015 Sharp Sword level of readiness. The Russians just have a habit of rushing this stuff and putting it all out there. They think it's flying above Kiev without being spotted or shot down except that one time it misbehaved and was taken out by a Su-57. Comparing GJ-11 to S-70 is like comparing all the new models of BYD that hit mass production to the Aurus limosine.

Notice how much earlier Russia showed off the Su-57 only to have it arrive later than J-20 and today there are close to 400 J-20s in service and less than 40 Su-57 in service that are NOT prototypes. Yes the Russians often convert prototypes into combat platform. You can do that but most don't like doing that for various reasons. In this time China's also been building J-15, J-15D, J-15T, J-15DT, J-16, J-10C, J-10CE, UADFs, and working on 6th gens while Russia has been building Su-35, Su-30SM2 and working on Su-75.

They also showed off the Su-75 before it was even a prototype. Who shows off a pre-prototype concept?? And why? to score customers? They'll just realise you want their money to develop the concept into a prototype assuming they even flew X-planes of it.

So for the above reasons, I'm hesitant to consider the S-70 a fully developed and completed product at the moment. They might have completed it and it's hitting some level of mass production but they're also likely to broadcast that if that is true. They haven't.
 
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ougoah

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Please not again this Turkish "we have too" contest! While indeed impressive, the Anka and the GJ-11 are not really comparable both in timeline - the Dark Sword was flying long before - almost 10 years before - and also size-wise the GJ-11 is a different class.

@blackforest

And indeed the Anka-3 is impressive. It puts Turkey into quite an elite club who have actually flown full scale flying wings - US, Germany, China, France, and Russia (and Iran if we want to be strictly technical).

I don't think the British BAe Magma has flown in full scale form without vertical stabilisers.

India's Ghatak program has only flown scaled down models and their first few also flew with vertical stabilisers. They eventually flew without them but not sure if a full scale (using at least a 30KN engine) has flown.

The thing with flying wings is, anyone capable can educate themselves and build an RC plane flying wing. There's nothing overly challenging about it. Horton brothers didn't have any aeronautical engineering background and not only built large flying wings but they were also manned flying wings with weapon loads ... at least intended to be.

What is impressive then has shifted to what China's managed to do with tailless aircraft. Make them go supersonic. Something even the US hasn't managed yet. China has at least 4 tailless supersonic aircraft, 2 unmanned and 2 manned. Cue the cope from NAFO calling the 6th gens photoshops and UADFs as mockups only even though China has never once bragged about a capability it didn't possess and overstate its abilities. It's pretty much on record as behaving exactly the opposite. When China shows 4, they have not only more but better stuff in the works.
 

tphuang

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I think it's very important to state that GJ-11 and GJ-21 are likely the most stealthy aircraft in PLA service once they enter service. They also likely have longer range than any current PLAAF aircraft (a little more debatable here).

So, one should not understate its importance or significance.

I am really intrigued to find out just what kind of payload it will be carrying.

imo, it should also be at a higher degree of stealth than B-2 & F-117. Which is a little unfair since it is coming into service so much later. But on the battlefield, you don't really care about how old or new a platform is. You just care about how hard it is to pick up.
 

Maikeru

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I think it's very important to state that GJ-11 and GJ-21 are likely the most stealthy aircraft in PLA service once they enter service. They also likely have longer range than any current PLAAF aircraft (a little more debatable here).

So, one should not understate its importance or significance.

I am really intrigued to find out just what kind of payload it will be carrying.

imo, it should also be at a higher degree of stealth than B-2 & F-117. Which is a little unfair since it is coming into service so much later. But on the battlefield, you don't really care about how old or new a platform is. You just care about how hard it is to pick up.
I thought GJ-11 was already in service and replacing J-6W?
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
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This CCA in this near planform view photo has triggered a thought and some questions.

We know the parade version only held a mockup. The other CCA features a wing that indicates preference for range and time in air. This CCA should have less than 50KN available thrust if the GJ-11 at ~12m has 60KN and we just roughly scale by volume. How then is this wing sweep the correct one to apply? The other CCA displayed next to it would have a similar output engine and has an apt wing configuration.

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So why did they go with such a supersonic design? It's not any stealthier than the lambda wing of its adjacent colleague but it could offer a significantly longer and a little wider weapons bay with this design.

Without the vertical stabs, this almost has the same planform as one of the UADFs. Dorsal intake clears a bit more access room for internal weapons bay. The mockup doesn't feature IWB obviously and didn't bother to give attention to the landing gear or doors. Instead, the mockups showed underside electronics/optics and sensors. If the mockup is relatively accurate a representation of the actual platform, it is intentionally hinting at ISR role.

So vertical stabs could also be employed as a cheaper means of achieving desired flight characteristics without more expensive solutions and FCS such as moving wingtips and other control surfaces we're associating with supersonic tailless. It could also be a necessity due to the planform being long enough for A2A missiles and IWB. Lower sweep angle would mean a fatter aircraft with shorter fuselage, limiting IWB length, limiting A2A performance. But this planform might have required a more powerful engine and/or vertical stabs if forgoing more expensive and complex methods to achieve flight performance without. Hence the vertical stabs.

Mockup featuring ISR underside is intriguing.

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If it has an IWB and this mockup is representative of accurate actual size, then the IWB can at most house 2x finless PL-12 lengthed missiles. Even with dorsal intake instead of underside intake, IWB wont carry more than 2x A2A missiles. That's not terrible for a ~40KN engine and a relatively cheap, unmanned airframe. It should be stealthy enough to fly close and give those missiles exceptional P(K).

ISR is unlikely since you'd want high loiter time and range for ISR. This configuration looks far more geared to A2A. It's not even that suitable for strike since you'd prefer range and stealth and payload over speed for strike so the stabs and sweep angle makes less sense. That leaves dedicated EW. EW would require a fairly powerful engine ideally unless your battery tech is up to the task. So even with a 40KN engine and loaded with batteries, this could potentially do some damage. Stealth enough to fly into desired positions before firing off jammers. No IWB, just backed with fully charged batteries that could take a 2T vehicle 1000km in range. Not impossible for its role.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

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Registered Member
From the same TWZ article about J-36/50, the CAC UADF was seemingly spotted at Malan too (scroll towards the end of the article).
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It'd be better if you just post the photo.

In the meantime: So, yes - All the UADFs showcased in the 9-3 parade are very, very real PLAAF projects (if not already in test and evaluation service with the PLAAF by now), rather than being just "muh cardboard mockups" comments by those ignoramous retards elsewhere.

fighter-sized-cca-china.png
 
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