Chinese UCAV/CCA/flying wing drones (ISR, A2A, A2G) thread

[ACuriousPLAFan]

Are there any info/leaks on PLAAF investment on lower end CCAs that could be built by the thousands per year? Currently all known CCAs/UCAVs seems to be manned fighter sized high end systems, from what we could find PLAAF seems to be going down a different route with their initial CCA procurement. USAF is going for very cheap mass produced small subsonic drones while PLAAF seems to be going for large supersonic/supercruising capable with likely their own suite of advanced sensors and possibly share systems with 6th gen aircraft.

Depends on whether the FH-97/A is considered a low-tier CCA-type UCAV.

There's also the question on whether the PLAAF (and the PLANAF) really intend on procuring them in the future, or if the FH-97/A is only meant for the export market or even just a technological showcase stunt.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Depends on whether the FH-97/A is considered a low-tier CCA-type UCAV.

There's also the question on whether the PLAAF (and the PLANAF) really intend on procuring them in the future, or if the FH-97/A is only meant for the export market or even just a technological showcase stunt.

Moot point. Chinese military is not interested in FH-97A.

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

Moot point. Chinese military is not interested in FH-97A.

Then I'd say it remains to be seen whether other possible CCA-type UCAV designs/models that are in similar category as the FH-97/A will be inducted by the PLAAF and PLANAF in the future.

 

[vincent]

Are there any info/leaks on PLAAF investment on lower end CCAs that could be built by the thousands per year? Currently all known CCAs/UCAVs seems to be manned fighter sized high end systems, from what we could find PLAAF seems to be going down a different route with their initial CCA procurement. USAF is going for very cheap mass produced small subsonic drones while PLAAF seems to be going for large supersonic/supercruising capable with likely their own suite of advanced sensors and possibly share systems with 6th gen aircraft.

Define “low-cost” drones’ mission first. What missions will they perform?

 

[dingyibvs]

Then I'd say it remains to be seen whether other possible CCA-type UCAVs that are in similar category as the FH-97/A will be inducted by the PLAAF and PLANAF in the future.

IMO as I stated in another thread cheap CCAs might as well just be more versatile missiles. If they're supposed to be expendable then just go basically all the way with them. Lose the easy reusability and gain useful payload and/or range/speed. It'd basically be a missile with a range-extending, stealth-adding shell which it can shed in the terminal phase.

For subsonic missions for example you could have something like modified LRASMs carrying a modified PL-15 (let's call it PL-15G, modified to be able to attack small/soft ground/sea targets as well) payload accompanying a J-20/36. When bogeys are detected, the PL-15G would be launched and the rest of the body discarded. You obviously wouldn't go on regular patrols with these, only when encounters are expected and shooting is authorized.

 

[Tomboy]

IMO as I stated in another thread cheap CCAs might as well just be more versatile missiles. If they're supposed to be expendable then just go basically all the way with them. Lose the easy reusability and gain useful payload and/or range/speed. It'd basically be a missile with a range-extending, stealth-adding shell which it can shed in the terminal phase.

For subsonic missions for example you could have something like modified LRASMs carrying a modified PL-15 (let's call it PL-15G, modified to be able to attack small/soft ground/sea targets as well) payload accompanying a J-20/36. When bogeys are detected, the PL-15G would be launched and the rest of the body discarded. You obviously wouldn't go on regular patrols with these, only when encounters are expected and shooting is authorized.

I agree, USAF Inc 2. CCAs are basically that. Small, cheap swarming type drones with EW/ISR systems onboard that could be air launched and carried by fighters/bombers/high end CCAs to disrupt enemy formations and waste their ammunition, probe IAD weakness and also disrupt enemy AEW while potentially also being able to carry some small strike munition. These could also be launched from the ground via rockets assist in canisters for great versatility.

IMO, though I don't think these swarming drones should be used for A2A combat. They'll be much more potent as swarming drones carrying sensors and possibly suicide/launch strike munitions. With enough numbers they'll be extremely difficult to fully take out could cause some serious mayhem.

 

[dingyibvs]

I agree, USAF Inc 2. CCAs are basically that. Small, cheap swarming type drones with EW/ISR systems onboard that could be air launched and carried by fighters/bombers/high end CCAs to disrupt enemy formations and waste their ammunition, probe IAD weakness and also disrupt enemy AEW while potentially also being able to carry some small strike munition. These could also be launched from the ground via rockets assist in canisters for great versatility.

IMO, though I don't think these swarming drones should be used for A2A combat. They'll be much more potent as swarming drones carrying sensors and possibly suicide/launch strike munitions. With enough numbers they'll be extremely difficult to fully take out could cause some serious mayhem.

I think for sensors and serious strike missions you need larger CCAs. It's tough to imagine these smaller ones having enough power generation for EW missions or the penetration abilities (i.e. not getting intercepted) to strike well guarded targets. So in my proposal these types of CCAs would carry munitions that are very fast and/or manuerable for striking soft targets.

Wasting enemy munitions don't make much sense IMO. As cheap as these things are, intercepting munitions are probably gonna be way cheaper.

 

[Tomboy]

I think for sensors and serious strike missions you need larger CCAs. It's tough to imagine these smaller ones having enough power generation for EW missions or the penetration abilities (i.e. not getting intercepted) to strike well guarded targets. So in my proposal these types of CCAs would carry munitions that are very fast and/or manuerable for striking soft targets.

Wasting enemy munitions don't make much sense IMO. As cheap as these things are, intercepting munitions are probably gonna be way cheaper.

Thats untrue, MALD-J as an example is powerful enough to spoof enemy radar/AEW despite being tiny (~150kg in weight). Swarming drones I'm proposing will be slightly larger than these EW decoys with much more autonomy/range/sensing and with possibility to carry some small strike munitions(Small advanced glide munitions). It's also possible to make these recoverable via parachutes etc. If mass produced these drones could be made extremely cheap, easily cheaper than American active homing radar missiles which can cost up to ~1M to even more with JATM being even more expensive so IMO wasting enemy munition is a valid use case for these drones.

Interception of these will be relatively difficult especially if some stealth is designed into them via basic shaping since these drones will be launched by the hundreds via carrier aircraft(Fightes or Bombers) and/or from the ground via canisters. The main point of these drones will not be for strike or A2A but to help take control of the EM spectrum and maybe double as some strike drones for low intensity conflict. Strike mission against peer adversaries(US CSG etc) should be carried out by high end CCAs with advanced hypersonic weapons.

 

[dingyibvs]

Thats untrue, MALD-J as an example is powerful enough to spoof enemy radar/AEW despite being tiny (~150kg in weight). Swarming drones I'm proposing will be slightly larger than these EW decoys with much more autonomy/range/sensing and with possibility to carry some small strike munitions(Small advanced glide munitions). It's also possible to make these recoverable via parachutes etc. If mass produced these drones could be made extremely cheap, easily cheaper than American active homing radar missiles which can cost up to ~1M to even more with JATM being even more expensive so IMO wasting enemy munition is a valid use case for these drones.

Interception of these will be relatively difficult especially if some stealth is designed into them via basic shaping since these drones will be launched by the hundreds via carrier aircraft(Fightes or Bombers) and/or from the ground via canisters. The main point of these drones will not be for strike or A2A but to help take control of the EM spectrum and maybe double as some strike drones for low intensity conflict. Strike mission against peer adversaries(US CSG etc) should be carried out by high end CCAs with advanced hypersonic weapons.

MALD-J is just a decoy. It might be fine against Cold War era radars but I doubt it's that useful in a peer conflict, at least not in "taking control of the EM spectrum". How are they supposed to do that with their tiny electronics? China and the US are the foremost powers in power semiconductors, they're not on the level of say Russia or Iran who don't have much if any of a semiconductor industry to speak of.

With subsonic decoys, AAA is sufficient, and it'll be surely cheaper than these decoys.

 

[Tomboy]

MALD-J is just a decoy. It might be fine against Cold War era radars but I doubt it's that useful in a peer conflict, at least not in "taking control of the EM spectrum". How are they supposed to do that with their tiny electronics? China and the US are the foremost powers in power semiconductors, they're not on the level of say Russia or Iran who don't have much if any of a semiconductor industry to speak of.

With subsonic decoys, AAA is sufficient, and it'll be surely cheaper than these decoys.

You underestimate the power of a swarm of these drones, yes, a single drone might only have limited output capacity but what about a hundred or a thousand? I'm NOT proposing a simple decoy here but a mass-produced autonomous EW node.