Another thing to note is that, it is Hakka/客家 (not Hokkien/Fujian 福建) being closer to Middle and Old Chinese. Hakka and Hokkien (Fujian) is very different. Hakka is essentially a social/language isolate, meaning people from central plain migrated south, surrounded by earlier arrivals without much mixing and change. Hakka is special in studying not only language change of pre-modern Chinese but even genetics of early Chinese because of their isolation.
Chinese tradition, ceremony,culture
- Thread starter Hendrik_2000
- Start date
One more thing to be careful is that, true to other cases as well, Wu (Zhejiang) dialect is not necessarily the same Wu (from Hangzhou the capital) that influenced Japan.
See Kaifeng/汴梁 and Luoyang/洛阳, Henan).
Give a modern evidence. I have a friend who is from 萧山 which is not Hangzhou. He told me that the two dialect is very far apart in pronunciation, difficult to understand, although they are only 40 km away.
See Kaifeng/汴梁 and Luoyang/洛阳, Henan).
The reason was that Hangzhou as the then Southern Song capital was primarily settled by immigrant and refuges from north after the collapse of Northern Song. Most of them are from Henan (the then center of Northern Song). As Hangzhou was the capital and major marine time port at the time, it is Hangzhou more influential to Japan through trade.
Give a modern evidence. I have a friend who is from 萧山 which is not Hangzhou. He told me that the two dialect is very far apart in pronunciation, difficult to understand, although they are only 40 km away.
Actually I once did some research into this and I found that the reality was not as simple as the Anti-Qing types like to paint it. There is a lot of evidence that the old clothing styles continued to be worn throughout the Qing era until it was wiped out under the 1920s Qipao "modernization", and also a lot of Ming era styles of clothing that look suspiciously Manchu...
These are Qing Dynasty:
Virtually everybody wearing 交领
\
But these are Ming dynasty...
Since this is a defence forum, from a military perspective it's rather preposterous to suggest that a small Siberian tribe can really make that much impact on an enormous urban civilization by themselves; the so-called "Manchu conquest of China" was really just an internal power grab by military opportunists like Wu Sangui, Geng Zhongming and Shang Kexi, the sort of people who dominated the Qing government including Li Hongzhang and Yuan Shikai. Even before crossing the Great Wall, the so-called "Manchu Army" was actually 75% Han Chinese, and Wu's forces joining later were even more than that; the Manchus even made it a point not to participate in combat and let the Han kill each other!
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Yes Hennan is the craddle of all the southern dialect .For Hokkien they know exactly where they come from almost all of Hokkien surname come from Gushi County in Hennan.The founder of Min Kingdom Wang Zhengzi is from Gushi county and so do the conquerer of Taiwan admiral
Here is is abridge youtube history of southern migration at the end of 9th century relatively late in Chinese history. Etnic identity is serious thing in China they have official body to certify ethnicity using history language, even DNA They now convince that southern Chinese are direct descendant of central plane (Hennan and Shanxi) 97% of Y Haplogroup(father side) of Southern Chinese are identical to the northern Chinese but on Mitocondrial(mother side) is only 25% identical to the northern chinese
Here is the short history of Wang Shengzi
Wang Shenzhi
Wang Shenzhi
Reign April 27, 909 – December 30, 925
Born 862
Died December 30, 925
Full name
- : (王)
- : Shěnzhī (審知)
Prince Zhōngyì
(忠懿王, "faithful and benevolent"),
later Emperor Zhāowǔxiao
(昭武孝皇帝, "accomplished, martial, and filial")
Tàizǔ (太祖)
Wang Shenzhi (: 王審知; 862 – December 30, 925), Xintong (信通) or Xiangqing (詳卿), formally Prince Zhongyi of Min (閩忠懿王) and later further posthumously honored as Emperor Taizu of Min (閩太祖), was the founder of on the southeast coast of China during the of . He was from in modern-day .
Wang Shenzhi
王審知
王审知
[]Transcriptions
Contents
Background
Wang Shenzhi was born in 862, during the reign of . His fifth-generation ancestor Wang Ye (王曄) served as the magistrate of Gushi County (固始, in modern , ), and because the people loved him, he settled his family in Gushi. The family subsequently became known for their family business. His father's name was Wang Nin (王恁), and his mother was a Lady Dong. He had two older brothers, and Wang Shengui (王審邽).
Service under Wang Xu
In 881, the bandit leader , along with his brother-in-law Liu Xingquan (劉行全), captured Guang Prefecture (光州, in modern Xinyang); he was subsequently commissioned the prefect of Guang Prefecture by the military governor () of Fengguo Circuit (奉國, headquartered in modern , ). Wang Xu forced the men of Guang Prefecture to join his army, and he made Wang Chao, who had previously been a government worker at the Gushi County government, his discipline officer. Later on, however, Qin turned against the Tang imperial government and was on the cusp of claiming imperial title himself. He ordered Wang Xu to pay taxes to him. When Wang Xu was unable to do so, he launched an army to attack Wang. Wang Xu, in fear, gathered 5,000 soldiers from Guang and Shou Prefectures and forced the people to cross the to the south. By spring 885, Wang had continued south and captured Ting (汀洲, in modern , ) and Zhang (漳州, in modern , ) Prefectures, but was not able to hold either for long. By the time that Wang Xu reached Zhang Prefecture, his army was running low on food. As the terrain in Fujian Circuit (福建, headquartered in modern , ), which Zhang Prefecture belonged to, was rugged, he ordered that the old and the weak be abandoned. However, in violation of his order, Wang Chao and his brothers continued to take their mother Lady Dong with them. Wang Xu rebuked them and threatened to put Lady Dong to death. They begged for Lady Dong's life, offering to die in her stead. Other officers also spoke on their behalf, and Wang Xu relented.
Meanwhile, by this point, Wang Xu had also become extremely paranoid, as he had been warned by a sorcerer that there was belonging to a king in his army, so he began to put to death anyone whom he considered to have talents surpassing his own — going as far as putting Liu Xingquan to death. The fact that Wang was willing to put someone as close to him as Liu to death terrified the other officers. When the army reached Na'an (南安, in modern , ), Wang Chao persuaded Wang Xu's forward commander, who feared that he would be Wang Xu's next target, into turning against Wang Xu. The forward commander and Wang Chao thus laid an ambush for Wang Xu and, when he was caught off-guard, arrested him. Wang Chao initially wanted to support the forward commander to be the new leader, but the forward commander pointed out that it was Wang Chao's idea that allowed them to survive Wang Xu's cruelty, and so the army agreed to have Wang Chao become their leader. Wang Chao subsequently took over Quan Prefecture (泉州, in modern , ) and obtained a commission from the governor (觀察使, Guanchashi) of Fujian Circuit (福建, headquartered in modern , ) as the prefect of Quan Prefecture.
The reason that you find the "Ming style clothes continued in Qing era" is thatActually I once did some research into this and I found that the reality was not as simple as the Anti-Qing types like to paint it. There is a lot of evidence that the old clothing styles continued to be worn throughout the Qing era until it was wiped out under the 1920s Qipao "modernization", and also a lot of Ming era styles of clothing that look suspiciously Manchu...
These are Qing Dynasty:
Virtually everybody wearing 交领
\
But these are Ming dynasty...
Since this is a defence forum, from a military perspective it's rather preposterous to suggest that a small Siberian tribe can really make that much impact on an enormous urban civilization by themselves; the so-called "Manchu conquest of China" was really just an internal power grab by military opportunists like Wu Sangui, Geng Zhongming and Shang Kexi, the sort of people who dominated the Qing government including Li Hongzhang and Yuan Shikai. Even before crossing the Great Wall, the so-called "Manchu Army" was actually 75% Han Chinese, and Wu's forces joining later were even more than that; the Manchus even made it a point not to participate in combat and let the Han kill each other!
- The "change cloth and hair style" order was ONLY applied to MALE of Han and Hui (Muslim) Chinese. Han and Hui women continued their cloth style from Ming (交领).
- Paintings made in Qing era often depict a very general scene and subject that is not time related. Qing government was not sensitive to figures in it not depicted as Manchu style. Even Emperor Yong zheng and Qianglong of Qing have all had themselves depicted in Han dress. See this (Qianlong).
3. If the red robe of the woman is from Qing dynasty, it is a aristocratic woman (诰命夫人) who is allowed to wear dragon motif. The cloth is not really Ming style. It is not 交领, but buttoned in the middle which is rather Manchu. Remember she is aristocrat, her cloth is uniform so it has to be closer to Qing court dress. Who is she? Manchu or Han?
Last edited:
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Henan county an ancestral haven for Chinese worldwide
By Zhao Shijun | China Daily | Updated: 2016-12-16 07:42
Folk performances are held to celebrate the Gushi root-seeking cultural festival. [Photo by Xiang Mingchao/China Daily]
Genealogy is a common interest among many Chinese people, whether they are living at home or abroad, as ancestral worship is at the core of Chinese cultural values.
Henan province, which is known as the Central Plain, is the cradle of Chinese civilization and the origin of many Chinese family clans.
According to Shi Jichun, deputy chairman of the Henan committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, 78 of the top 100 family names in China have their origins in Henan.
Gushi, a county in Henan, holds a unique place among residents of Fujian and Taiwan, as well as many overseas Chinese, because of large migration movements from Gushi beginning during the Jin Dynasty (265-420).
In Taiwan, 63 of the top 100 family clans have origins in Gushi, according to their family history books.
In Gushi, there is an annual root-seeking cultural festival, offering a platform for people sharing Gushi-native heritage to get together.
This year's festival opened on September 26.
A milestone event during the festival is the opening of the Wang's Memorial Museum to commemorate Wang Shenzhi, one of the most famous historical figures from Gushi.
Wang was appointed the governor of Fujian in the turbulent years of the late Tang Dynasty (618-907).
While the rest of the country was in the midst of constant war and conflict, people in Fujian enjoyed a peaceful life because of his wise and beneficial administration.
As the ruler of Fujian, Wang was said to be frugal, often wearing hemp shoes and residing in a small house. His criminal penalties were relaxed and tax rates were low. These policies were said to lead both the government and its people to wealth, and keep his realm relatively calm.
Because of Wang's contribution to local development, he was remembered by the Fujian people as one of the most prominent figures in local history.
Wang's massive family also went with him to Fujian, where they flourished into a large local clan after dozens of generations.
The museum was invested in and built by Wang Mingyi, chairman of the Pinnacle Group based in Zhengzhou, capital of Henan province. He is also a 36th-generation descendent of Wang Shenzhi.
Wang said the purpose of building the memorial museum is to enhance the coherence of the Wang clan, to remind them of the great contributions of their ancestor and to pass down the moral legacy of Wang Shenzhi to future generations.
"One of the most remarkable legacies left by Wang Shenzhi is his sense of responsibility for the people and the country, and the enterprising spirit in building a homeland amid many difficulties," Wang said.
After settling in Fujian, some Wang clan members also went beyond Fujian to Taiwan province, Southeast Asia and the rest of the world.
"Wang's Memorial Museum will also offer a platform for the Wang clan members to worship their ancestors and build connections," Wang said.
In addition to Wang Shenzhi, there are also other prominent people from Gushi that made great contributions to the spread of Central Plain culture－an important part of the Chinese civilization－to the rest of the country.
Wang Zhixue, head of the Gushi county government, mentioned Sun Shuao, the prime minister of the Chu State during the Spring and Autumn Period (770-476 BC), who brought the relatively advanced farming and navigation techniques of the Central Plain to the south. Li Tong, a Han Dynasty (207 BC-AD 220) general, also made great contributions to the country's unification.
The millennium-old Miaogao Temple is evidence of the longstanding and brilliant culture of Gushi. [Photo by Xia Yi/China Daily]
Wang also talked about Chen Yuanguang, a Gushi native during the early Tang Dynasty, who was a prominent pioneer in developing Fujian.
At the age of 13, Chen accompanied his father Chen Zheng, commander of the southern China military expeditionary force, on a march to Fujian to set up a regional administration.
In 677, Chen Zheng died, and Chen Yuanguang took over his father's duties, leading the troops.
Chen established order in Fujian and, as a result, the entire region, with Zhangzhou at the center, became stable. He then introduced advanced farming and production techniques to the region, making it as prosperous as the Central Plain.
Chen's descendents also settled in Fujian and later moved to Guangdong, Taiwan and throughout Southeast Asia.
The people of Zhangzhou, Fujian, along with the descendants of immigrants from Zhangzhou to Taiwan, Singapore and Malaysia, all refer to him as the "Sacred Prince, Developer of Zhangzhou".
Qu Shangying, Party chief of Gushi, said the county has been a traditional destination for genealogy among Chinese people all over the world.
"We are glad to see that many Chinese people with ancestral roots in Gushi have exerted increasing influence across the Taiwan Straits and throughout the world," Qu said.
He said the genealogical events in Gushi are building close connections between Gushi and the world, and the growing affinity for Gushi among Chinese people in the rest of the country and the world is expected to bring more cultural and economic prosperity to the county.
Since 2008, when the first Gushi root-seeking cultural festival was held, more than 100,000 people from home and abroad took trips to the county, praying to their ancestors, donating to local education institutions, or setting up businesses, according to Qu.
By Zhao Shijun | China Daily | Updated: 2016-12-16 07:42
Folk performances are held to celebrate the Gushi root-seeking cultural festival. [Photo by Xiang Mingchao/China Daily]
Genealogy is a common interest among many Chinese people, whether they are living at home or abroad, as ancestral worship is at the core of Chinese cultural values.
Henan province, which is known as the Central Plain, is the cradle of Chinese civilization and the origin of many Chinese family clans.
According to Shi Jichun, deputy chairman of the Henan committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, 78 of the top 100 family names in China have their origins in Henan.
Gushi, a county in Henan, holds a unique place among residents of Fujian and Taiwan, as well as many overseas Chinese, because of large migration movements from Gushi beginning during the Jin Dynasty (265-420).
In Taiwan, 63 of the top 100 family clans have origins in Gushi, according to their family history books.
In Gushi, there is an annual root-seeking cultural festival, offering a platform for people sharing Gushi-native heritage to get together.
This year's festival opened on September 26.
A milestone event during the festival is the opening of the Wang's Memorial Museum to commemorate Wang Shenzhi, one of the most famous historical figures from Gushi.
Wang was appointed the governor of Fujian in the turbulent years of the late Tang Dynasty (618-907).
While the rest of the country was in the midst of constant war and conflict, people in Fujian enjoyed a peaceful life because of his wise and beneficial administration.
As the ruler of Fujian, Wang was said to be frugal, often wearing hemp shoes and residing in a small house. His criminal penalties were relaxed and tax rates were low. These policies were said to lead both the government and its people to wealth, and keep his realm relatively calm.
Because of Wang's contribution to local development, he was remembered by the Fujian people as one of the most prominent figures in local history.
Wang's massive family also went with him to Fujian, where they flourished into a large local clan after dozens of generations.
The museum was invested in and built by Wang Mingyi, chairman of the Pinnacle Group based in Zhengzhou, capital of Henan province. He is also a 36th-generation descendent of Wang Shenzhi.
Wang said the purpose of building the memorial museum is to enhance the coherence of the Wang clan, to remind them of the great contributions of their ancestor and to pass down the moral legacy of Wang Shenzhi to future generations.
"One of the most remarkable legacies left by Wang Shenzhi is his sense of responsibility for the people and the country, and the enterprising spirit in building a homeland amid many difficulties," Wang said.
After settling in Fujian, some Wang clan members also went beyond Fujian to Taiwan province, Southeast Asia and the rest of the world.
"Wang's Memorial Museum will also offer a platform for the Wang clan members to worship their ancestors and build connections," Wang said.
In addition to Wang Shenzhi, there are also other prominent people from Gushi that made great contributions to the spread of Central Plain culture－an important part of the Chinese civilization－to the rest of the country.
Wang Zhixue, head of the Gushi county government, mentioned Sun Shuao, the prime minister of the Chu State during the Spring and Autumn Period (770-476 BC), who brought the relatively advanced farming and navigation techniques of the Central Plain to the south. Li Tong, a Han Dynasty (207 BC-AD 220) general, also made great contributions to the country's unification.
The millennium-old Miaogao Temple is evidence of the longstanding and brilliant culture of Gushi. [Photo by Xia Yi/China Daily]
Wang also talked about Chen Yuanguang, a Gushi native during the early Tang Dynasty, who was a prominent pioneer in developing Fujian.
At the age of 13, Chen accompanied his father Chen Zheng, commander of the southern China military expeditionary force, on a march to Fujian to set up a regional administration.
In 677, Chen Zheng died, and Chen Yuanguang took over his father's duties, leading the troops.
Chen established order in Fujian and, as a result, the entire region, with Zhangzhou at the center, became stable. He then introduced advanced farming and production techniques to the region, making it as prosperous as the Central Plain.
Chen's descendents also settled in Fujian and later moved to Guangdong, Taiwan and throughout Southeast Asia.
The people of Zhangzhou, Fujian, along with the descendants of immigrants from Zhangzhou to Taiwan, Singapore and Malaysia, all refer to him as the "Sacred Prince, Developer of Zhangzhou".
Qu Shangying, Party chief of Gushi, said the county has been a traditional destination for genealogy among Chinese people all over the world.
"We are glad to see that many Chinese people with ancestral roots in Gushi have exerted increasing influence across the Taiwan Straits and throughout the world," Qu said.
He said the genealogical events in Gushi are building close connections between Gushi and the world, and the growing affinity for Gushi among Chinese people in the rest of the country and the world is expected to bring more cultural and economic prosperity to the county.
Since 2008, when the first Gushi root-seeking cultural festival was held, more than 100,000 people from home and abroad took trips to the county, praying to their ancestors, donating to local education institutions, or setting up businesses, according to Qu.
solarz
Brigadier
Actually I once did some research into this and I found that the reality was not as simple as the Anti-Qing types like to paint it. There is a lot of evidence that the old clothing styles continued to be worn throughout the Qing era until it was wiped out under the 1920s Qipao "modernization", and also a lot of Ming era styles of clothing that look suspiciously Manchu...
These are Qing Dynasty:
Virtually everybody wearing 交领
\
But these are Ming dynasty...
Since this is a defence forum, from a military perspective it's rather preposterous to suggest that a small Siberian tribe can really make that much impact on an enormous urban civilization by themselves; the so-called "Manchu conquest of China" was really just an internal power grab by military opportunists like Wu Sangui, Geng Zhongming and Shang Kexi, the sort of people who dominated the Qing government including Li Hongzhang and Yuan Shikai. Even before crossing the Great Wall, the so-called "Manchu Army" was actually 75% Han Chinese, and Wu's forces joining later were even more than that; the Manchus even made it a point not to participate in combat and let the Han kill each other!
Oh I agree that the fashion of Ming was probably more similar to that of Qing than to Qin. The problem is, the "Hanfu" movement insists on excluding the Qing dynasty from their definition of "Hanfu".
I personally find the Hanfu that is exhibited to be very beautiful (the girl wearing it doesn't hurt either!
), but I simply cannot agree that it is "traditional Chinese clothing". Aside from the fact that it is a rediscovery rather than a tradition handed down from previous generations, it also contains a ton of fictional elements for aesthetic reasons. Calling these clothes "traditional Chinese clothing" would be like calling the costumes from Lord of the Rings "traditional European clothing".On a different note, Manchus are from NW China, not from Siberia. They're not a small tribe either, they're the descendants of the Jurchens, who ruled Northern China as the Jin dynasty.
While it's true that Wu Sangui's betrayal facilitated the Manchu invasion of Ming (or rather what's left of it after Li Zicheng), the Manchu held the reins of power from start to finish. Li Hongzhang was just a functionary, it was Cixi who dominated the Qing government. As for Yuan Shikai, he didn't so much "dominate" the Qing government as helped overthrow it.
The Ming dynasty had regulations of female aristocrat's court dress. Here is one I find. It is cross collar.Actually I once did some research into this and I found that the reality was not as simple as the Anti-Qing types like to paint it. There is a lot of evidence that the old clothing styles continued to be worn throughout the Qing era until it was wiped out under the 1920s Qipao "modernization", and also a lot of Ming era styles of clothing that look suspiciously Manchu...
．．．．
But these are Ming dynasty...
As I gather Qing dynasty however did not have formal regulation of female aristocrat's court dress. So the Han aristocrat's dress follows Ming style at the beginning but evolved to more Manchu style (the middle buttons). You can find various styles.
Hakka, like other Southern Chinese Han, have absorbed quite a bit of maternal DNA from the Baiyue and She peoples. Most Hakka I have met look distinctly Southern Chinese in complexion.
I agree with others, but not so sure of Hakka. The reason that I said about their isolation was because there were many researches on the group conducted in China due to their "being special", not really due to my own observation.
Regarding personal features, I don't trust much of an individual, there is a saying "南人北相，北人南相", "southerner looks northerner and vis versa". I only know one Hakka from Guangdong, my life long buddy, he is pretty much undistinguishable in appearance from people in Beijing, his parents are from the same place.
What I want to say is that a few individual's representation is far from enough to make any conclusion.