No more Western spying. That's actually the primary reason.
Chinese semiconductor industry
- Thread starter Hendrik_2000
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I am not RF engineer, but as I understand it, 5G benefits are more geared towards industrial applications rather than end users.
End user will of course see better upload/download speed, but the necessity of that becomes minimal as certain things are reaching physical limits (ie streaming 4K video to a smartphone is useless since our eyes cannot discern the sharpness).
For industrial use, base stations will have greater capacity, lower latency, and supposedly better connection quality.
Some applications I have heard thrown about would be:
Vehicle to Vehicle communication (obviously needs low latency), autonomous cars would be talking to each other to optimize travel arrangement and reduce accidents.
Automated logistics, a warehouse entirely managed by robots down to the delivery vehicles.
Public transportation management. Something like an EV bus might have the charge reporting back in real time, if it might run out of juice along the way, an alternate bus could be dispatched.
Some of these could probably be achieved with existing technology as a proof of concept, but 5G is supposed to be rock solid and cheaper/lower power (at the endpoint).
Back to semiconductor news.
I was just reading some analysis on the Intel foundry business since the CEO was trying to draw some attention with the Apple announcement.
It got me thinking…
Now we have Intel becoming a foundry, Intel building a new fab, TSMC saying they will build fabs in Arizona and Japan, Globalfoundries wants to build new fab, and SMIC will of course build new fabs. I assume UMC and Samsung will too.
What doesn’t make sense is that they say “oh there’s huge demand!”, but is there really? Certainly more and more things are demanding chips now, but the players in the game now are already leftover from some brutal consolidation. Note in the above there are no Japanese companies? Did you know Panasonic actually originally beat Intel to 65nm? Now they are dust.
Globalfoundries has never made a dime. The business was so bad that IBM paid Abu Dhabi to take their facilities away. This gave them a significant capacity increase from what they already inherited from AMD in Germany.
So we actually had more players in what was supposedly a smaller pond, yet we are supposed to believe that there is some magic shortage?
Just how much have American sanctions distorted the market?
I was just reading some analysis on the Intel foundry business since the CEO was trying to draw some attention with the Apple announcement.
It got me thinking…
Now we have Intel becoming a foundry, Intel building a new fab, TSMC saying they will build fabs in Arizona and Japan, Globalfoundries wants to build new fab, and SMIC will of course build new fabs. I assume UMC and Samsung will too.
What doesn’t make sense is that they say “oh there’s huge demand!”, but is there really? Certainly more and more things are demanding chips now, but the players in the game now are already leftover from some brutal consolidation. Note in the above there are no Japanese companies? Did you know Panasonic actually originally beat Intel to 65nm? Now they are dust.
Globalfoundries has never made a dime. The business was so bad that IBM paid Abu Dhabi to take their facilities away. This gave them a significant capacity increase from what they already inherited from AMD in Germany.
So we actually had more players in what was supposedly a smaller pond, yet we are supposed to believe that there is some magic shortage?
Just how much have American sanctions distorted the market?
@supersnoop bro since you work in the industry will the FAB 21 of TSMC and Intel FAB in Arizona be viable as both concentrate on producing 5nm and lower nodes? Since we're in the subject of distorted market, will that promote BLOCS as national security takes priority. Globalization of supply chain ended when the US sanction Huawei, every nation will try to hold and produced a national champion in precaution as trust in the system had been shattered.
The one benefit 5G brings over to 4G is one that benefits carriers most and the one the media talks about the least: connection density.
4G lets you connect 2000 users per kilometer. 5G lets you connect 1 million users per kilometer. For this reason this benefits dense urban areas like you expect in China. Users also means objects connected to the Internet, or IOT.
From our friend @Oldschool, bro looking forward to your post, I'll eagerly wait for it! 
So @asta here's your proof of an actual SMEE 28nm DUVL in used courtesy of our esteem member @Oldschool. and by the way if you don't bother to re read this thread SSA800 is the code name of the DUVL.
SMIC Chengdu foundry, using Shanghai microlithography machine SSA800/10W immersion lithography machine parameters: lens NA: 1.35 single exposure resolution: 38-41nm dual workpiece stage: DWSi, the production rate is 200 wafers per hour Circle engraving accuracy: better than 2.5nm Design index: can meet the 28nm planar planner transistor logic circuit process requirements under a single exposure condition
So @asta here's your proof of an actual SMEE 28nm DUVL in used courtesy of our esteem member @Oldschool. and by the way if you don't bother to re read this thread SSA800 is the code name of the DUVL.2021年9月3日, 芯成都代工，采用上海微光刻机 SSA800/10W浸入式光刻机参数：镜头NA：1.35 单次曝光分辨率：38-41nm 双工件台：DWSi，产率在每小时200片晶圆 套刻精度：优于2.5nm 设计指标：能够在单次曝光条件下满足28nm平面planner晶体管逻辑电路工艺需求
SMIC Chengdu foundry, using Shanghai microlithography machine SSA800/10W immersion lithography machine parameters: lens NA: 1.35 single exposure resolution: 38-41nm dual workpiece stage: DWSi, the production rate is 200 wafers per hour Circle engraving accuracy: better than 2.5nm Design index: can meet the 28nm planar planner transistor logic circuit process requirements under a single exposure condition
• 2 months ago • 2 months ago • Collection •SMIC Chengdu foundry, using Shanghai microlithography machine SSA800/10W immersion lithography machine parameters: lens NA: 1.35 single exposure resolution: 38-41nm dual workpiece stage: DWSi, the production rate is 200 wafers per hour Circle engraving accuracy: better than 2.5nm Design index: can meet the 28nm planar planner transistor logic circuit process requirements under a single exposure condition
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@WTAN Sir @Oldschool ask me for your comment, I never knew SMIC had a Chengdu FAB and is using the SMEE 28NM DUVL, Its a great surprise really and I hope @Oldschool will post more. I know the upcoming Beijing and Shenzhen FAB will be using all domestic equipment, will the new Shanghai Fab used it also? or maybe to conform with the current SN1 FAB may used ASML DUVL for commonality?
Not bad at all for a SMEE newly released machine.From our friend @Oldschool, bro looking forward to your post, I'll eagerly wait for it!
2021年9月3日, 芯成都代工，采用上海微光刻机 SSA800/10W浸入式光刻机参数：镜头NA：1.35 单次曝光分辨率：38-41nm 双工件台：DWSi，产率在每小时200片晶圆 套刻精度：优于2.5nm 设计指标：能够在单次曝光条件下满足28nm平面planner晶体管逻辑电路工艺需求
SMIC Chengdu foundry, using Shanghai microlithography machine SSA800/10W immersion lithography machine parameters: lens NA: 1.35 single exposure resolution: 38-41nm dual workpiece stage: DWSi, the production rate is 200 wafers per hour Circle engraving accuracy: better than 2.5nm Design index: can meet the 28nm planar planner transistor logic circuit process requirements under a single exposure condition
• 2 months ago • 2 months ago • Collection •
SMIC Chengdu foundry, using Shanghai microlithography machine SSA800/10W immersion lithography machine parameters: lens NA: 1.35 single exposure resolution: 38-41nm dual workpiece stage: DWSi, the production rate is 200 wafers per hour Circle engraving accuracy: better than 2.5nm Design index: can meet the 28nm planar planner transistor logic circuit process requirements under a single exposure condition
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Resolution 38nm.
Produces 28nm Chips using a single exposure.
200 Wafers per Hour.
This is quite competitive with current ASML DUVL.
The DUVL will be gradually improved over time.
SMIC is building many FABs across China usually in partnerships with Provincial Governments.
Local Governments provide funds and SMIC provides expertise.
This DUVL was probably one of the prototypes delivered to SMIC for testing and evaluation early this year.
3 other prototype units went to other customers
This SMIC 28nm FAB should be using all domestic equipment.
China Semiconductor Industry has already sucessfully developed a completely localised production line for 28nm.
The completely localised production line for 14nm should be ready in 2022.
I'm flattered that I give the impression of being an insider, however I do not work in the industry. I just like to read and have some basic technical and business knowledge. In fact, I would say you seem better informed than me.
If you still want to hear my opinion, here it is
If we are talking about overall capacity, then yes there is a need for more fab capacity. Since smartphones/IOT is a continually growing segment, you see TSMC is concentrating on the sub 7nm (also the most profitable).
However, the problems are more business than technical (sure they have been mentioned previously).
- 2024 initial production is very aggressive. How many construction projects get finished in Western countries in 2 years? One of the limitations is simply labour supply. If you need some kind of skilled construction labour, there is not enough.
- Supply location is far from customers. As mentioned, Globalfoundries is a big money loser. However, their process technology is quite advanced. One of the few foundries with FinFET and SOI capability. The issue becomes it doesn't make a lot of sense to ship chips from Western New York and Germany back to Asia for packaging. Actually Intel is doing this, but at least they are on the west coast and they had a captive market for a long time. Now that AMD's performance is competitive again, you see that their margins are threatened.
As a corollary to the above:
- Who are the customers for 5nm in the USA? 5nm by 2024 will not be the leading edge process for TSMC if things are going according to schedule. The risk is ending up with the same problem as Globalfoundries. If you are not the best, then the margin becomes lower, lower margin products are going to favor being close to Asia (To put it another way, MediaTek is not going to pay those shipping costs).
- Finally, to the best of my knowledge, the supply constraints are primarily because TSMC has been very good at supporting their customers on leading (or close to leading) edge processes in addition to actually having the best process. As a result, everyone is fighting to get their high-end chips made at TSMC (which also means TSMC has less capacity for low profit chips like 28nm)
nVidia and Qualcomm are using Samsung 8nm in addition to TSMC and there have been many reports of overheating because Samsung 8nm is simply inferior. 8nm is just the smallest feature size, if other parts of the process are not engineered well, then "Xnm" is just meaningless marketing. This was also the problem with Intel's first 10nm process (I think it was used on Cannon Lake, eventually the whole process design was thrown out). Intel is finally able to fab 10nm at volume, but only lower power chips right now (15W Laptop). Overall, Intel 10nm is probably still superior to Samsung despite the naming, which is probably why they recently announced a name change. Really, Intel is only one step behind. However, since the TSMC-AZ fab will be one step behind, then Intel and TSMC would be equals in stateside manufacturing (as long as Intel doesn't suffer further delays). As such, the issue would become less technical and more about customer support.
This was a lot to go over, so let's cut to the chase. Is the AZ Fab a Potemkin village? If you consider from a corporate standpoint, then it is really a waste of money. Is it viable? Yes, probably, but it would not be maximizing the ROI.
Ironically, Cold War ideology would favour Control economy (Communism) over Capitalism. You have empty car lots and store shelves all over the country to fight the trade war with China. It is like the old Soviet system where it was difficult to get basic consumer goods like cars, bicycles, and TVs. National champion system is inefficient and prone to corruption, otherwise everyone in Malaysia would be driving Protons.
I don't think the US is wrong to ban Huawei backend equipment domestically, USA is the expert in telecom snooping, they know what the possibilities are. Where they went wrong was their attempt to destroy the company. I get why they did it, it is like the economic version of "Shock and Awe". How well did that work out though?
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