Chinese semiconductor industry

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hashtagpls

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The US banned 5-Axis machine tools from being sold to China for the same reason you hear for semiconductors today thinking China couldn't make them themselves. China then made their own 5-Axis machine tools and killed the international market for US 5-Axis machine tools. That's how chips are going to turn out. There was an earlier discussion in this thread pointing to technologies the US tried to stop China from acquiring and then China developed them soon after. Remember how China was going to get its first AWACS type aircraft from Israel and the US stopped it from happening and literally within a couple years China made their own. Or how about Galileo? China invested money into it but the Europeans barred Chinese access to some aspects that they freely gave access to countries that didn't invest any money. Then China came out with their own GPS system and launched it before Galileo. How about apps? Remember how they said the future was apps and China was just hardware. Now the US is so afraid, they have to ban Chinese apps because they've become so popular. But somehow semi-conductors are going to be different. I'm sure they said that for everything else before too.
The arrogance of the white man leads him to believe that only he is capable of science.
 

FangYuan

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The US banned 5-Axis machine tools from being sold to China for the same reason you hear for semiconductors today thinking China couldn't make them themselves. China then made their own 5-Axis machine tools and killed the international market for US 5-Axis machine tools. That's how chips are going to turn out. There was an earlier discussion in this thread pointing to technologies the US tried to stop China from acquiring and then China developed them soon after. Remember how China was going to get its first AWACS type aircraft from Israel and the US stopped it from happening and literally within a couple years China made their own. Or how about Galileo? China invested money into it but the Europeans barred Chinese access to some aspects that they freely gave access to countries that didn't invest any money. Then China came out with their own GPS system and launched it before Galileo. How about apps? Remember how they said the future was apps and China was just hardware. Now the US is so afraid, they have to ban Chinese apps because they've become so popular. But somehow semi-conductors are going to be different. I'm sure they said that for everything else before too.

It is like a double-edged sword. Obama once banned the export of supercomputer chips to China, they wanted to prevent China from using supercomputers to simulate nuclear explosions. But a year later, China developed its own native chips. If the United States can foresee the future, it will continue to export supercomputer chips. This does not stop China from developing its own supercomputer chip, but will slow the research process (3-4 years) and help American corporations make more money.

Current US strategy, is it working or not. Only the future can answer.
 

Kazuo Ken

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The US banned 5-Axis machine tools from being sold to China for the same reason you hear for semiconductors today thinking China couldn't make them themselves. China then made their own 5-Axis machine tools and killed the international market for US 5-Axis machine tools. That's how chips are going to turn out. There was an earlier discussion in this thread pointing to technologies the US tried to stop China from acquiring and then China developed them soon after. Remember how China was going to get its first AWACS type aircraft from Israel and the US stopped it from happening and literally within a couple years China made their own. Or how about Galileo? China invested money into it but the Europeans barred Chinese access to some aspects that they freely gave access to countries that didn't invest any money. Then China came out with their own GPS system and launched it before Galileo. How about apps? Remember how they said the future was apps and China was just hardware. Now the US is so afraid, they have to ban Chinese apps because they've become so popular. But somehow semi-conductors are going to be different. I'm sure they said that for everything else before too.
Can I have the story about The US banned 5-Axis machine tools from being sold to China. Because it sounds doesn't make sense. What year that ban happened?
 
D

Deleted member 15949

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https://www.reddit.com/r/CredibleDefense/comments/mmc83k/_/gtunmir
It's this one if I remember correctly. Basically he's saying China is so far behind in every aspect that achieving chip independence is impossible, that there are systemic issues in the tech industry that make it impossible to catch up etc.
The Redditor is wrong. He has Chinese lag times simply wrong. Fab is not 10 years behind. Equipment is not 20 years behind. EDA is software and can be replicated quite easily.
 

mderfox

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Can I have the story about The US banned 5-Axis machine tools from being sold to China. Because it sounds doesn't make sense. What year that ban happened?
That's story long time ago. Under batumi(paris coordinate) specially target communist country. Practically all high tech is not allowed. Only if similar product is develop in China ban is lift.

5 axis CNC machine include in export control. Until China manage develop, they will not sell to China. But some of second hand product arrived at 1980s as China Honeymoon with US during that time.
 

Kazuo Ken

New Member
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That's story long time ago. Under batumi(paris coordinate) specially target communist country. Practically all high tech is not allowed. Only if similar product is develop in China ban is lift.

5 axis CNC machine include in export control. Until China manage develop, they will not sell to China. But some of second hand product arrived at 1980s as China Honeymoon with US during that time.
What a weird condition they put there lol. I think they wanted China to develop similar machines using Chinese own knowledge and technology so when they lift the ban and start selling their machines again in China Chinese manufacturers will not going to steal or copy their technology or product because Chinese have mastered the technology on their own. That's their thinking I guess.
 

ansy1968

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That's story long time ago. Under batumi(paris coordinate) specially target communist country. Practically all high tech is not allowed. Only if similar product is develop in China ban is lift.

5 axis CNC machine include in export control. Until China manage develop, they will not sell to China. But some of second hand product arrived at 1980s as China Honeymoon with US during that time.
@mderfox And it also help that Germany and Japan don't restrict its company and even let the Chinese bought KUKA and now most of them had factory in China. The same thing is happening in the semi conductor sector. The banning force the Chinese to develop its own and when they had develop a successful product the ban will be lifted. Its a nuance on China part but deep inside they are thankful cause it made them self sufficient, with SMEE 28NM DUVL coming on stream ASML will break ranks with the US and sell their DUVL. The Chinese had been calm ever since Trump implement his sanction against the Chinese company, they had played this game before and know how to win it.
 
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mderfox

New Member
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What a weird condition they put there lol. I think they wanted China to develop similar machines using Chinese own knowledge and technology so when they lift the ban and start selling their machines again in China Chinese manufacturers will not going to steal or copy their technology or product because Chinese have mastered the technology on their own. That's their thinking I guess.
Its not weird but a classic capitalist system. Lets say China manage develop EUV, ASML will immediately sell EUV tools to China. Then chinese company will got on dilemma either buy or face fierce competition.

Why China indigenous product fail because of competition. Currently ASML EUVL is completely monopoly, practically they can put any price and condition to customer and price is very expensive. Meanwhile in the process they already get ROI back. Once competition coming in they can put price very cheaply on reason technology mature to avoid anti-dumping law.

That's why Chinese company (public or pribate) very hard to develop their own indigenous tech. Competition in China is cutthroat than any capitalist country on the world. They need survive first than develop their own tech in the process they already to late. If not central government intervention and US sanctions hard to any china company to innovation. Among Chinese company that have innovation already sanctions by US.
 
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