Chinese semiconductor industry

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ansy1968

Brigadier
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....IMO very wise the decision from ASML to not expand production, they can look many years in advance.
And bro maybe a potential problem for ASML, or maybe not, will they continue the costly development of their EUVL or concentrate on improving new iteration DUVL for the Chinese market? ASML had spoilt of choice as you said they're able to leverage their tech and are run by competent business people, BUT the windows maybe closing, I hope they're able to maintain their pragmatism, in this era of intense geopolitical competition they may forced to choose side and we know it ain't China.:(
 

european_guy

Junior Member
Registered Member
And bro maybe a potential problem for ASML, or maybe not, will they continue the costly development of their EUVL or concentrate on improving new iteration DUVL for the Chinese market? ASML had spoilt of choice as you said they're able to leverage their tech and are run by competent business people, BUT the windows maybe closing, I hope they're able to maintain their pragmatism, in this era of intense geopolitical competition they may forced to choose side and we know it ain't China.:(

Bro, if Holland government officially revokes permission of export, there is nothing they can do about it, just follow instructions.

It is now, before any final decision is taken, that they can push, and I am sure they are already having a strong and daily interaction with their government to let them keep doing business with China. They have very recently hired 300 people in ASML China, now up to 1500 people. Also this is a clear message they want to give.

Regarding developing of the new high-NA EUV, these machines are for Intel and TSMC fabs, so if these two firms will delay investment, also ASML will delay. If Intel and TSMC keep current expansion plans at the very advanced nodes, IMO also ASML will keep high-NA development as planned. Of course ASML will not develop such a complex and costly machine without a sure customer and a sure number of machines already sold.
 

Hitomi

Junior Member
Registered Member
Another "too little, too late" attempt by US.

AMEC has already publicly stated that is able to etch 200 layers. But what makes me persuaded that YMTC can live without US equipment is their bold move of selling to Apple. The reactions of US politicians are always very predictable and YMTC should have known that in advance, so if they did it anyhow, to me it means they think they are safe.

At the moment I only see 3 bans that can still have an impact on sub 28nm advanced nodes for China companies, involved mainly in AI, GPU, CPU and in general in data processing...and maybe in some smartphone chip too.

1. Ban of TSMC foundry services for sub 28nm nodes --> 1/2 years delay before SMIC ramps up enough volume

2. Ban of ASML for sub 28nm nodes -> can be anything between 1 and 3 years delay before SMEE takes over

3. Ban of EDA tools for sub 28nm nodes -> this is the most serious one, top Chinese EDA companies foresee 4/5 years before closing the gap.

Of all these bans, only the last one can be done by US in total autonomy, the first two require a very strong pressure on Taiwan and Holland governments, and although US has strong influence on both, you can never tell if the effort will be successful because it is clear that both TSMC and ASML very strongly want to remain in China market and for very good reasons, especially now, at the beginning of a serious recession cycle.
Regarding this EDA ban, would the realistic delay actually be smaller if the fabs rely on pirated EDA software or find other ways to circumvent it by running the software on overseas servers and remotely utilizing it from China.
 

Franklin

Captain
Another "too little, too late" attempt by US.

AMEC has already publicly stated that is able to etch 200 layers. But what makes me persuaded that YMTC can live without US equipment is their bold move of selling to Apple. The reactions of US politicians are always very predictable and YMTC should have known that in advance, so if they did it anyhow, to me it means they think they are safe.

At the moment I only see 3 bans that can still have an impact on sub 28nm advanced nodes for China companies, involved mainly in AI, GPU, CPU and in general in data processing...and maybe in some smartphone chip too.

1. Ban of TSMC foundry services for sub 28nm nodes --> 1/2 years delay before SMIC ramps up enough volume

2. Ban of ASML for sub 28nm nodes -> can be anything between 1 and 3 years delay before SMEE takes over

3. Ban of EDA tools for sub 28nm nodes -> this is the most serious one, top Chinese EDA companies foresee 4/5 years before closing the gap.

Of all these bans, only the last one can be done by US in total autonomy, the first two require a very strong pressure on Taiwan and Holland governments, and although US has strong influence on both, you can never tell if the effort will be successful because it is clear that both TSMC and ASML very strongly want to remain in China market and for very good reasons, especially now, at the beginning of a serious recession cycle.
When China announced the China 2025 plan I was skeptical on rather or not it will work. Because foreign competition for these technologies in the Chinese market were hard. But now it seems that the Americans are insisting to help China out by taking themselves out of the market and create a urgency to build these technologies in China domestically.
 

Franklin

Captain
We will see how things pan out.

I just posted my speculations on the European economic thread. Looks like we are heading to a banking crisis over the next few months that could possibly starts as soon as next week. When banks are not healthy, they are unable to lend money. Businesses don't keep large chunk of cash around. So if banks aren't healthy and can't lend money, businesses simply can't build new fabs.

If we expand on that, EU banking sector problems mean that there won't be many new EU fabs build in the context of semiconductor.

Which brings us to China. I saw this on Friday.
That is a lot lending necessary for Chinese economy by the banking sector. China may want to expand while other fabs are cutting back. However, if money isn't there for them to invest, then the expansions won't happen.
The difference between western nations and China is that China has a high savings rate combined with large trade surplusses means it has the money to make capital investments in a way that western countries cannot at the moment. In addition to that China is rapidly moving up the value chain so they are creating new products were there is high domestic demand for in light of blacklists and bans coming out of America and to a lesser extend her allies. And Chinese industry are living in fear of new bans in the future so they are looking for domestic alternatives. This creates a market for Chinese high tech products that wasn't there before.

The problem however is that as wages grow and Covid lockdowns continues plus the libral reforms from Xi means a lot of the low end production is now leaving China for lower cost countries in the region. You add to that the slump in the housing market and drought. Its all hitting the Chinese economy hard.
 

56860

Senior Member
Registered Member

6 new tech unicorns related semiconductors minted in Q3 2022.
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President Xi Jinping would beg to differ. In his estimation, technology comes in two varieties: nice to have, and need to have. Social media, e-commerce and other consumer internet companies are nice to have, but in his view national greatness doesn’t depend on having the world’s finest group chats or ride-sharing.

By contrast, Mr. Xi thinks the country needs to have state-of-the-art semiconductors, electric-car batteries, commercial aircraft and telecommunications equipment to retain China’s manufacturing prowess, avoid deindustrialization and achieve autonomy from foreign suppliers.

Announce plan > execute

China shit.
 
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