Chinese semiconductor industry

Phead128 said:

You only need patents if you plan to export EUVL abroad. Last I heard, China needs EUVL for domestic consumption, it's not going to export EUVL tools abroad, so patent doesn't matter.

China is attempt at vertical integration of semiconductor supply chain INSIDE China, it's not trying to help TSMC or Samsung leapfrog it by providing it's competitors with advanced tools (where patents matter)

Click to expand...

Who said china only need patent if they only need use domestically?? Do you know what patent law is? Even China have patent Law and come 4th amendment
source; .

Phead128 said:

You know the EUV laser source is the most difficulty part? Developing a powerful EUV laser is the CORE of an EUV. The other major part is refraction of light using mirrors, which China has already developed as well (see prior posts in the thread).

Click to expand...

EUVL machine not LEGO.

Phead128 said:

A half-part of impatience, and half-part of stupid in everyone of your replies.

Click to expand...

Up to you everyone can have different opinions. Only egoistic people demand his view is right.

Phead128 said:

US banned TSMC/ASML from supplying leading nodes to SMIC, and China is support to curry favors with US and fix it's image with US gov't? Get real. This is a tech trade war, where US unilaterally lied about SMIC to smear China's reputation. And now you are trying to play the good guy after the US fired the first shot? Get real.

Click to expand...

Tech War, Trade War and Geopolitics War is Game. If China can't stand the heat get out from kitchen. So far China also step up in Geopolitics. Increase military spending, involved in border conflict in Himalaya, South China Sea etc. Of course winner take all. They also playing Game. So nobody fault, its National interest above all.

Phead128 said:

Patents only matter if you EXPORT the EUVL tools abroad. China doesn't need to export EUVL tools, it needs it to make chips at home. If you can't get this, you are really thick in the brain.

Click to expand...

I think you are ignorant. Patent Law is effective if they filing in related country. Nobody can't escape if got caught.

Phead128 said:

What is this verbal diarrhea? China was attacked by US in a tech trade war, and now China must play nice to curry favors to the bully US?

GET REAL MAN.

Click to expand...

As far I'm seeing China giving so much on US demand.
1. Patent protection.
2. US company access to China market.
3. Buying US soya bean.

what did US giving to China??? only stop tariff increase so far what can I saw.

In Geopolitics there is no fair. All country playing same game rule. As long the didn't touch other country redline is fair game. Remember china block Google and Facebook operate in China on ground national security's. US also did same thing on Huawei using national security. As far I know US lobby on block Huawei in country like NATO or they have military or intelligent sharing on that country. They are using very powerful tools because Huawei involve with telecommunications.

The same with China, demand domestic OS on government PC by 2022 on the ground National security and I don't see Microsoft screaming by stating unfair.

Short story China doesn't have much bargains power to deter US from do whatever they want to do.

A really good summary from FairAndUnbiased (pakistan defense forum)

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Tech sanctions have proved China need to be self-sufficient in electronic components (CPU, GPU, Memory, CMOS, Display, Battery, etc) and software (operating system).

China can no longer rely on foreign components and put them together into a phone.

The entire industrial chain must be self-sufficient.

Click to expand...

Samsung display is useless for Huawei. Huawei uses BOE display and has the possibility of alternate sourcing from CSOT.

China actually has some of the most advanced memory devices with YMTC XTacking technology which is one of the first true 3-D memory architectures - other so called "3-D" architectures are still planar, with logic and I/O circuits taking up valuable die space next to the memory cells. YMTC already introduced a 128 layer NAND chip.

CPU - Huawei has the most powerful ARM CPU in the world with the Kirin 9000.

GPU - nothing but this is the least important tbh as SoC design includes basic graphics processing, and machine learning/AI can be better done with ASICs. not an expert though.

CMOS sensors - Omnivision, but unfortunately its facilities are in the US.

Currently the semiconductor scene looks like a mess, so many different small players like zhaoxin, loongson, sunway, kunpeng, via, smic with different instruction sets like x86, arm, risc v

Same goes for the software side, kylinos, uos, kylin ubuntu or something


Is there any player that looks stronger than the others? Which do you think will be the future of China's tech scene?

free_6ix9ine said:

Covid-19 would like to have a word with you. Bargaining power comes from surprising places, it's not just military or economic or technology. Now China knows a stupid flu can collapse the USA. Next time USA is acting aggressive to China on trade or technology or semiconductors, wouldn't be surprised China sends out a covid-19 2.0.

Click to expand...

Yups. Nobody want war. Each other will testing other people bottom line, like how US zigzag on China military Base on SCS.

It's seem US already soften its stance on Huawei. From news, they already granted some licenses doesn't involve with 5G. I don't know if Huawei can still fabricate on Kirin chip. Otherwise Huawei had to used QUALCOMM and MediaTek for their mobile phone for time being.

mderfox said:

Who said china only need patent if they only need use domestically?? Do you know what patent law is? Even China have patent Law and come 4th amendment
source;

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

.



EUVL machine not LEGO.


Up to you everyone can have different opinions. Only egoistic people demand his view is right.



Tech War, Trade War and Geopolitics War is Game. If China can't stand the heat get out from kitchen. So far China also step up in Geopolitics. Increase military spending, involved in border conflict in Himalaya, South China Sea etc. Of course winner take all. They also playing Game. So nobody fault, its National interest above all.


I think you are ignorant. Patent Law is effective if they filing in related country. Nobody can't escape if got caught.

Click to expand...

If they get caught. How does someone catch this if China only delivers its EUV sets to Chinese fabs? Your whole post puts the cart before the horse.

mderfox said:

As far I'm seeing China giving so much on US demand.
1. Patent protection.
2. US company access to China market.
3. Buying US soya bean.

what did US giving to China??? only stop tariff increase so far what can I saw.

In Geopolitics there is no fair. All country playing same game rule. As long the didn't touch other country redline is fair game. Remember china block Google and Facebook operate in China on ground national security's. US also did same thing on Huawei using national security. As far I know US lobby on block Huawei in country like NATO or they have military or intelligent sharing on that country. They are using very powerful tools because Huawei involve with telecommunications.

The same with China, demand domestic OS on government PC by 2022 on the ground National security and I don't see Microsoft screaming by stating unfair.

Short story China doesn't have much bargains power to deter US from do whatever they want to do.

Click to expand...

Still rambling about the individual trees because you can't see the forest. The whole point of this deal for Trump was to stunt China economically and technologically in order for the US to retain its lead, and he's failed to do both, actually invigorating technological development instead. This deal was meant to reverse the momentum of China overtaking the US and allow the US to start pulling ahead more. Instead, China's momentum is greater than ever before. But small-minded people keep focusing on individual little points, as if buying soy beans is supposed to be the victory. Trump says he's a good deal-maker but he's not; he focuses on small things like you. Xi (or Liu) is the good deal-maker. Puts on a deal that makes China's economy continue to outgrow America's and Chinese tech continue to overtake. All the while he leaves Trump's Neanderthals picking through the dumpster for things they think are treasures. The best deal-maker leaves his opponent thinking that he won while he actually lost.

sndef888 said:

Currently the semiconductor scene looks like a mess, so many different small players like zhaoxin, loongson, sunway, kunpeng, via, smic with different instruction sets like x86, arm, risc v

Same goes for the software side, kylinos, uos, kylin ubuntu or something


Is there any player that looks stronger than the others? Which do you think will be the future of China's tech scene?

Click to expand...

Reminds me of the backyard furnaces under Mao when everyone was in a frenzy to produce steel, coordination suffered and low quality pig iron was the result.

mderfox said:

Phead128 said:

mderfox said:

yes I do admit China will take less tortuous path with ASML as guideline, but in return China need to pull more resources to bypass patent barrier. As long China trading with outside world they need respect patent. They have to protect know than in 20 years ago.

Click to expand...

You only need patents if you plan to export EUVL abroad. Last I heard, China needs EUVL for domestic consumption, it's not going to export EUVL tools abroad, so patent doesn't matter.

Click to expand...

Who said china only need patent if they only need use domestically?? Do you know what patent law is? Even China have patent Law and come 4th amendment

source; Ten highlights of China's new patent law.

Click to expand...

How do you know Chinese EUVL violates foreign patent if Chinese EUVL is exclusively delivered to Chinese fabs inside China?

You think ASML can walk into a Chinese fab and investigate a Chinese EUVL to determine if it contains patent infringement?

Commercial competitors can't get a working example of Chinese EUVL to investigate, that's the POINT.

How simple minded you are.

manqiangrexue said:

If they get caught. How does someone catch this if China only delivers its EUV sets to Chinese fabs? Your whole post puts the cart before the horse.

Click to expand...

There is no impenetrable wall in the world.

manqiangrexue said:

Still rambling about the individual trees because you can't see the forest. The whole point of this deal for Trump was to stunt China economically and technologically, and he's failed to do both, actually invigorating technological development instead. But small-minded people keep focusing on points, as if buying soy beans is supposed to be the victory. Trump says he's a good deal-maker but he's not; he focuses on small things like you. Xi (or Liu) is the good deal-maker. Puts on a deal that makes China's economy continue to outgrow America's and Chinese tech continue to overtake. All the while he leaves Trump's Neanderthals picking through the dumpster for things they think as treasures.

Click to expand...

We can't see long term who more benefit than other. Trade War, Tech war and diplomatic dispute already ongoing. Right now US still biggest China client. So far the effective counter measure by China is Dual circulation. more likely to protect china from external shock. More importantly China can't isolated from the rest of the world. History already teaching China century humiliations by engaging isolation policy.

mderfox said:

There is no impenetrable wall in the world.

Click to expand...

That's a weak and meaningless non-response. And having such a powerful wall is still much better than your "blatant IP infringement" idea which basically equates to inviting others and providing them with the information to sue you when they have none. This is a stupidity found nowhere in the world.

Also, this "wall" only needs to be a stopgap to hurry China's entry into self-sufficient high end lithography. It is not a forever solution. When China eventually wants to compete with ASML in lithograph sales, the product must not contain IP infringements, but that is a longer term discussion.

mderfox said:

We can't see long term who more benefit than other. Trade War, Tech war and diplomatic dispute already ongoing. Right now US still biggest China client. So far the effective counter measure by China is Dual circulation. more likely to protect china from external shock. More importantly China can't isolated from the rest of the world. History already teaching China century humiliations by engaging isolation policy.

Click to expand...

Another weak and meaningless non-response. I said right now, the trade/tech war helps China close the gap both economically and technologically. You have no rebuttal to this truth so you responded with "We'll see." And some side-commentary that doesn't engage my point.

Phead128 said:

How do you know Chinese EUVL violates foreign patent if Chinese EUVL is exclusively delivered to Chinese fabs inside China?

You think ASML can walk into a Chinese fab and investigate a Chinese EUVL to determine if it contains patent infringement?

Commercial competitors can't get a working example of Chinese EUVL to investigate, that's the POINT.

How simple minded you are.

Click to expand...

OMG. why the need start with fab? in order to gather evidence, need to start with mapping Evidence of Use (EoU). they can infer with suppliers or final product by reverse engineering. As long evidence is strong, they can bring to authorities(court) to tear up EUVL on fab to prove their claim. Of course they need independent parties to validate their claim.

i give u link for further reading.