Chinese semiconductor industry


tokenanalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
According to the electromagnetic theory, electromagnetic radiation is emitted due to acceleration of charged particles - something that I first read since the 90s... Synchrotron radiation of electrons accelerated and circulated within and around synchrotrons has long been one way of demonstrating that theory. I have long read about the particles of particle accelerators producing emitting EM radiation. I have just been reminded that x-rays are produced in synchrotrons. They are more energetic per unit photon and have shorter wavelengths than all UV bandwidths...Since synchrotrons can be adjusted to vary the magnitude of energy and hence rates of acceleration and velocities reached by electrons and other charged particles being accelerated within them, it therefore means that UV radiation is also produced (being produced before x-rays) in synchrotrons...

THE POINT THAT I AM ARRIVING AT IS EUV radiation and X-rays have been produced by synchrotrons and other particle accelerators from their very inception, long long before Cymer or Gigaphoton produced mysterious (to me and almost everyone else) light sources that can be and are used to irradiate and vapourize tens of thousands of droplets of tin per second, transforming the droplets to plasma state that emit EUV radiation. So why is it that it is only now that serious consideration is being undertaken to apply particle accelerator to produce UV radiation for lithography applications to make IC chips?
I think light from a normal synchrotrons is all scattered and had low repetition rate. With microbuching is more coherent, more packed and have higher repetition rate, kinda like an excimer laser.

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page 8

The concept for this type of light source was proposed by Stanford in 2010, the experiments started in 2017 and a experimental demonstration was archived by a Sino-German team in 2019, the paper was published in early 2021.
DPP and LPP for EUV lithography has been researched since the 90s if my memory doesn't fail my guess nobody was seriously considering an accelerator for EUV and more less with Arf immersion in the corner.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Do you remember the song by Celine Dion, "Right in Front of You, Right in Front of Me"?

It might indeed be that in the case of looking to find the solution to produce EUV radiation for lithography is, was, and has been RIGHT THERE IN FRONT ALL THIS TIME, but all this time one has been looking somewhere and elsewhere that someway and somehow one couldn't see that the answer was right there, it's been been around for many years. It seems incredible, but now one has finally seen, that it been RIGHT THERE IN FRONT ALL THIS TIME.

Like NASA spent $10M to create a pen in the space against gravity and Soviet just use a pencil ;)
 

horse

Senior Member
Registered Member
@Hyper On the contraire bro, a single synchrotron cost more than the same as one ASML NXT 3400 EUVL between $150-180 million, the Cymer LPP occupy 30% of the cost. So IF SSMB is used and let say we put in 5 EUVL machine which is cheaper? any mathematic method even the India Vedic System will have the same answer...lol It's a revolutionary leap, now combine with a domestic LPP it will destroy ASML monopoly.

An sample from WIKI China SSRF

The Shanghai Synchrotron Radiation Facility (SSRF) (
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: 上海光源) is a
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-radiation light source facility in
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,
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. Located in an eighteen-hectare campus at Shanghai National Synchrotron Radiation Centre, on the
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in the
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district.
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SSRF is operated by the Shanghai Institute of Applied Physics (SINAP). The facility became operational in 2009, reaching full energy operation in Dec 2012.

When it opened, it was China's costliest single science facility.
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The facility "has played a key role in revealing the inner mechanism of various cancers."
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Construction[
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]​

It has a circumference of 432 metres, and is designed to operate at 3.5
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, the highest energy of any synchrotron other than the Big Three facilities
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in Hyōgo Prefecture, Japan,
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in Grenoble, France and
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at Argonne National labs, United States. It will initially have eight beamlines.

The particle accelerator cost 1.2 billion
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(
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176 million).
It is China's biggest light facility.
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It is located under a building with a futuristic snail-shaped roof.

The synchrotron opened to universities, scientific institutes and companies for approved research in May 2009.
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  • Dec. 2004 - Sept. 2006: Building construction
  • Jun. 2005 - Mar. 2008: Accelerator equipment and components manufacture and assembly
  • Dec. 2005 - Dec. 2008: Beamline construction and assembly
  • Apr. 2007 - Jul. 2007: Linac commissioning
  • Oct. 2007 - Mar. 2008: Booster commissioning
  • Apr. 2008 - Oct. 2008: Storage ring commissioning
  • Nov. 2008 - Mar. 2009: ID Beamline commissioning
  • Apr. 2009: The SSRF operation begins
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References​


You know what kind of bothers me brother? The timeline, of this EUV inside China.

For certain, absolutely certain, they will build another synchrotron. Simply because that is just for science. So they will build it.

Will they build an adjacent building beside it, cough cough a fab, no one has said anything about that! But, they keep touting the precision work bench, lol.

You know when see the doctor and they tell us go do the chest X-ray? So we stand front of that machine and get zapped. Then we turn to our sides and raise our arm and get zapped again. We move because we are made of silicone. The machine that emits the X-ray light, does not move.

All factories have the same setup. The widget here starts at point A, then it goes on process chain or conveyor belt, gets processed, and would arrive at point B, the finished product.

So the silicone wafer gets prepped in one building, then it goes onto a conveyor, and that precision workbench that does all the moving, it goes outside and then goes into that other building and gets rubber stamped by that synchrotron thingy.

That is a cool setup. The CCP are run by engineers. They probably want to build something like this!

Here we get to the interesting part. The science is not really debatable here, wavelengths, power, chemicals, that should be all known. Should be all tested before they even start building that factory complex. The interesting part is how this works, if they build it.

There is only one stamping machine, but with several stamps. Therefore, they could have 10 different companies as fabs, all using the same building to do the rubber stamp synchrotron thingy. All 10 companies would have their conveyor moving widgets outside then into that synchrotron building.

The authorities on mainland China, should invite TSMC to build a fab beside the synchrotron building. TSMC would not even need to buy a EUV machine. They can lease time to do the stamping, and for sure they will get a good rate. If TSMC declines, then they are on their own.

This is an offer they cannot refuse. :p

This synchrotron building, with the rubber stamps, is a public-private-partnership. The state needs the synchrotron for basic research, but it can lease out some portions for commercial applications. This is gonna cost a lot less than buying several machines from ASML.

You know how the Chinese are, with the Confucian teachings and stuff, they will give TSMC a chance, but they not give ASML a chance, like what for? We see how that goes, if they actually do this.

This is not trying to catch up and build an EUV machine for IC, this synchrotron building with adjacent fabs, is a completely new model to do IC.

This is not China product versus foreign product. This is a Chinese model versus a foreign model.

Would the Chinese model of doing it this way with a synchrotron building as the rubber stamper and the adjacent fab, be more cost effective? Hey! That is what public-private-partnerships are for! Hehe.

Unless, of course, they still decide to pursue some other unknown methods or technology that is patented. Like, no way Jose!?

No one has said anything about this sort of setup, not rumours, and definitely not officially. But that precision workbench exists, and synchrotron exists. Since this is China, officially, they will NOT put 2 and 2 together. End of story.

:oops::D


When they say end of story, they really do mean end of story. Silence!

np-file-74146.jpg



When was the real start date? This is year 2022 already, and the tech war with Huawei been going on since 2018, and before that it was ZTE in 2107? It was that long ago.
 

ansy1968

Major
Registered Member
You know what kind of bothers me brother? The timeline, of this EUV inside China.

For certain, absolutely certain, they will build another synchrotron. Simply because that is just for science. So they will build it.

Will they build an adjacent building beside it, cough cough a fab, no one has said anything about that! But, they keep touting the precision work bench, lol.

You know when see the doctor and they tell us go do the chest X-ray? So we stand front of that machine and get zapped. Then we turn to our sides and raise our arm and get zapped again. We move because we are made of silicone. The machine that emits the X-ray light, does not move.

All factories have the same setup. The widget here starts at point A, then it goes on process chain or conveyor belt, gets processed, and would arrive at point B, the finished product.

So the silicone wafer gets prepped in one building, then it goes onto a conveyor, and that precision workbench that does all the moving, it goes outside and then goes into that other building and gets rubber stamped by that synchrotron thingy.

That is a cool setup. The CCP are run by engineers. They probably want to build something like this!
@horse bro from what I gathered all the Technical Core needed for an EUVL is finished except for the light sources, since the original DPP is not ideal they're looking for other alternatives. And in searching like @Weaasel had mentioned the solution is there staring at their face.
Here we get to the interesting part. The science is not really debatable here, wavelengths, power, chemicals, that should be all known. Should be all tested before they even start building that factory complex. The interesting part is how this works, if they build it.

There is only one stamping machine, but with several stamps. Therefore, they could have 10 different companies as fabs, all using the same building to do the rubber stamp synchrotron thingy. All 10 companies would have their conveyor moving widgets outside then into that synchrotron building.

The authorities on mainland China, should invite TSMC to build a fab beside the synchrotron building. They can lease time to do the stamping, and for sure they will get a good rate. If TSMC declines, then they are on their own.

This is an offer they cannot refuse. :p

This synchrotron building, with the rubber stamps, is a public-private-partnership. The state needs the synchrotron for basic research, but it can lease out some portions for commercial applications. This is gonna cost a lot less than buying several machines from ASML.

You know how the Chinese are, with the Confucian teachings and stuff, they will give TSMC a chance, but they not give ASML a chance, like what for? We see how that goes, if they actually do this.

This is not trying to catch up and build an EUV machine for IC, this synchrotron building with adjacent fabs, is a completely new model to do IC.

This is not China product versus foreign product. This is a Chinese model versus a foreign model.

Would the Chinese model of doing it this way with a synchrotron building as the rubber stamper and the adjacent fab, be more cost effective? Hey! That is what public-private-partnerships are for! Hehe.

Unless, of course, they still decide to pursue some other unknown methods or technology that is patented. Like, no way Jose!?

No one has said anything about this sort of setup, not rumours, and definitely not officially. But that precision workbench exists, and synchrotron exists. Since this is China, officially, they will NOT put 2 and 2 together. End of story.

:oops::D


When they say end of story, they really do mean end of story. Silence!

np-file-74146.jpg
Bro SSMB is ideal for Brandon BBB plan, it's a perfect PPP ( Public Private Partnership) with Intel, Samsung and TSMC all gather in 1 place in Arizona. A SSMB powering Intel FAB 52 & 62, TSMC FAB 21 and maybe a Samsung FAB within the vicinity. It is cost effective and doable BUT typical of Americans, they don't want a simple solution they will go for a white elephant project to make it look grandeur and ASML the supplier will never allow it...lol
 

FairAndUnbiased

Senior Member
Registered Member
According to the electromagnetic theory, electromagnetic radiation is emitted due to acceleration of charged particles - something that I first read since the 90s... Synchrotron radiation of electrons accelerated and circulated within and around synchrotrons has long been one way of demonstrating that theory. I have long read about the particles of particle accelerators producing emitting EM radiation. I have just been reminded that x-rays are produced in synchrotrons. They are more energetic per unit photon and have shorter wavelengths than all UV bandwidths...Since synchrotrons can be adjusted to vary the magnitude of energy and hence rates of acceleration and velocities reached by electrons and other charged particles being accelerated within them, it therefore means that UV radiation is also produced (being produced before x-rays) in synchrotrons...

THE POINT THAT I AM ARRIVING AT IS EUV radiation and X-rays have been produced by synchrotrons and other particle accelerators from their very inception, long long before Cymer or Gigaphoton produced mysterious (to me and almost everyone else) light sources that can be and are used to irradiate and vapourize tens of thousands of droplets of tin per second, transforming the droplets to plasma state that emit EUV radiation. So why is it that it is only now that serious consideration is being undertaken to apply particle accelerator to produce UV radiation for lithography applications to make IC chips?
Because sometimes they overcomplicate things instead of doing the stupid easy stuff because it is highly profitable to do complicated stuff then overcharge for it.

Example 1: in real estate they have these ugly popcorn ceilings that nobody else in the entire world uses because they're super cheap to spray on (about 50 USD). They're also filled with asbestos until the 70s. Amazing galaxy brains using a sprayable carcinogen... As a building material... It costs like 10k USD to remove this literal cancer that was sprayed on for 50 USD.

Example 2: Traffic in literally every city is horrible. The dumb way to solve traffic: get cars off the road by investing in transit, higher density housing than single family homes (even townhouses and low rise condos), snd encourage small businesses near where people live. The galaxy brain way? Building single lane private underground roads at 20x the cost of a luxury condo complex + operating costs for an entire new bus line that would make less than 1% the profit of selling or renting the condos.

Guess what they went with?

traffic-jam-tunnel_61d91ecebc6cc.jpg
 

Tyler

Senior Member
Registered Member
You know what kind of bothers me brother? The timeline, of this EUV inside China.

For certain, absolutely certain, they will build another synchrotron. Simply because that is just for science. So they will build it.

Will they build an adjacent building beside it, cough cough a fab, no one has said anything about that! But, they keep touting the precision work bench, lol.

You know when see the doctor and they tell us go do the chest X-ray? So we stand front of that machine and get zapped. Then we turn to our sides and raise our arm and get zapped again. We move because we are made of silicone. The machine that emits the X-ray light, does not move.

All factories have the same setup. The widget here starts at point A, then it goes on process chain or conveyor belt, gets processed, and would arrive at point B, the finished product.

So the silicone wafer gets prepped in one building, then it goes onto a conveyor, and that precision workbench that does all the moving, it goes outside and then goes into that other building and gets rubber stamped by that synchrotron thingy.

That is a cool setup. The CCP are run by engineers. They probably want to build something like this!

Here we get to the interesting part. The science is not really debatable here, wavelengths, power, chemicals, that should be all known. Should be all tested before they even start building that factory complex. The interesting part is how this works, if they build it.

There is only one stamping machine, but with several stamps. Therefore, they could have 10 different companies as fabs, all using the same building to do the rubber stamp synchrotron thingy. All 10 companies would have their conveyor moving widgets outside then into that synchrotron building.

The authorities on mainland China, should invite TSMC to build a fab beside the synchrotron building. TSMC would not even need to buy a EUV machine. They can lease time to do the stamping, and for sure they will get a good rate. If TSMC declines, then they are on their own.

This is an offer they cannot refuse. :p

This synchrotron building, with the rubber stamps, is a public-private-partnership. The state needs the synchrotron for basic research, but it can lease out some portions for commercial applications. This is gonna cost a lot less than buying several machines from ASML.

You know how the Chinese are, with the Confucian teachings and stuff, they will give TSMC a chance, but they not give ASML a chance, like what for? We see how that goes, if they actually do this.

This is not trying to catch up and build an EUV machine for IC, this synchrotron building with adjacent fabs, is a completely new model to do IC.

This is not China product versus foreign product. This is a Chinese model versus a foreign model.

Would the Chinese model of doing it this way with a synchrotron building as the rubber stamper and the adjacent fab, be more cost effective? Hey! That is what public-private-partnerships are for! Hehe.

Unless, of course, they still decide to pursue some other unknown methods or technology that is patented. Like, no way Jose!?

No one has said anything about this sort of setup, not rumours, and definitely not officially. But that precision workbench exists, and synchrotron exists. Since this is China, officially, they will NOT put 2 and 2 together. End of story.

:oops::D


When they say end of story, they really do mean end of story. Silence!

np-file-74146.jpg



When was the real start date? This is year 2022 already, and the tech war with Huawei been going on since 2018, and before that it was ZTE in 2107? It was that long ago.

Are they going to build more of these similar facilities, distributed over different regions of the country, to diversify the risks of natural disasters and potential wars?
 

ansy1968

Major
Registered Member
Are they going to build more of these similar facilities, distributed over different regions of the country, to diversify the risks of natural disasters and potential wars?
@Tyler bro not trying to be a smart aleck, need to build the prototype first ( SSMB design with Commercial application) which will be finished in 2025, then we can talk about mass application. Being a late comer sure had its advantages, those FAB's being built in the US, Taiwan and SK that are finished or will be commissioned in 2024/2025 will become obsolete....lol A single HEPS in Beijing in theory has the capability to compete with TSMC and Samsung EUVL facility combined. That is a frightening prospect and I get what my brother @horse is trying to convey. Its game over both the Tech and trade war with scores as followed China 2 the US 1 ,TW -0.5 ,SK -0.5, the one point gain for the US came at the expense of its 2 allies which was harvested...lol
 
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