Chinese Radar Developments - KLJ series and others

camelbird

New Member
Registered Member
Allow me to introduce myself. I have been lurking for a few years. Normally I just watch, listen, learn, and do not comment, but there is just too much incorrect information. Given that it is my own field, I feel compelled to at least provide some correct information. Until 2012, I was a PE (Principal Engineer) at a very large processor company (the one with the letter "I"). There are many details I cannot share as that would violate NDA as well as ITAR.

There is confusion among Architecture, Micro Architecture, Circuit Design, Floorplanning, and Process Technology. These are distinct areas. "Packaging" is also a distinct area, and is mostly not what many seem to think it is.

There is no such thing as something "leaking voltage." Different kinds of transistors behave differently. For CMOS, leakage has always been an issue. This is not new. What is new is how serious the issue has become in the last two decades. There are different kinds of leakage. One is gate leakage. The use of High-K metal gates, specially, the use of hafnium, is around for years (can't say exactly how many), and this largely solves gate leakage. The much more serious issue is source-to-drain leakage. This has been an issue for decades, and is not new, and not specific to the recent process nodes. And CPUs, and circuits in general, can become "unstable" and fail to function properly for many reasons. Again, this is not specific to the recent process nodes.

The transition from 32nm to 28nm was not that hard, relatively speaking. It was certainly not as easy as the earlier transitions, but it was not nearly as hard as the later ones. And, while we are at it, a Xnm process is not always actually Xnm. Today that's often just the name of the process. It does not necessarily indicate the real minimum channel length of the devices.

The so-called TriGate, or, more correctly, FinFET, design has nothing to do with "futher packing of CPU circuitry by going 3 dimensionally." It is a way of constructing transistors. There are many ways to make transistors, even within one kind of transistor. As mentioned before, this is a distinct area from circuit design.

Liquid immersion lithography is not new, and was not really prompted by the latest process node transitions. It was proposed a long time ago and is simply a way of getting the effective wavelength down so that we can do smaller devices while keeping the usual issues of variation, edge coherence, and so on, in check. There are other solutions being worked on, as always.

The "Chinese foundries," meaning mostly SMIC, are indeed behind by about 2 generations. In fact, going by the timeline, they are behind by just over 2 generations. This is actually normal, given where they were before.

Intel is a US company, yes, but it is also very much an international company. Intel has many engineers from both China and India (probably many more than most people believe, just go to the cafeteria and take a look, it would pobably surprise most people). Some of them are now US citizens. Many have Green Cards but are not US citizens. Many are not even permanent residents, they have work visas. And many do not even reside in the US. They work from China and India. The same is true for a number of other large tech companies, particularly those in Silicon Valley. And yes, this often creates problems as there are restrictions in communication, even though often it does not make sense. For example, someone can come up with something, write it up, and after the document has gone through the process, the original author actually cannot read what he wrote.

As for HPC (High Peroformance Computing), or what many call Supercomputing, it is NOT just about hooking up a large number of processors. This is not only factually untrue, it is offensive and insulting to those of us who actually work in the area. Yes, financial resources is of course key, but the most critical aspect of HPC, in terms of design, is the interconnect fabric. Specifically, the Tianhe-2 has a very interesting design. And, more to the point, the control processor used in the fabric is, as far as I know, designed by the Chinese and fabbed by them. So while they are indeed behind in some key areas, for HPC they are actually doing very good work.
 

Brumby

Major
Allow me to introduce myself. I have been lurking for a few years. Normally I just watch, listen, learn, and do not comment, but there is just too much incorrect information. Given that it is my own field, I feel compelled to at least provide some correct information. Until 2012, I was a PE (Principal Engineer) at a very large processor company (the one with the letter "I"). There are many details I cannot share as that would violate NDA as well as ITAR.

There is confusion among Architecture, Micro Architecture, Circuit Design, Floorplanning, and Process Technology. These are distinct areas. "Packaging" is also a distinct area, and is mostly not what many seem to think it is.

There is no such thing as something "leaking voltage." Different kinds of transistors behave differently. For CMOS, leakage has always been an issue. This is not new. What is new is how serious the issue has become in the last two decades. There are different kinds of leakage. One is gate leakage. The use of High-K metal gates, specially, the use of hafnium, is around for years (can't say exactly how many), and this largely solves gate leakage. The much more serious issue is source-to-drain leakage. This has been an issue for decades, and is not new, and not specific to the recent process nodes. And CPUs, and circuits in general, can become "unstable" and fail to function properly for many reasons. Again, this is not specific to the recent process nodes.

The transition from 32nm to 28nm was not that hard, relatively speaking. It was certainly not as easy as the earlier transitions, but it was not nearly as hard as the later ones. And, while we are at it, a Xnm process is not always actually Xnm. Today that's often just the name of the process. It does not necessarily indicate the real minimum channel length of the devices.

The so-called TriGate, or, more correctly, FinFET, design has nothing to do with "futher packing of CPU circuitry by going 3 dimensionally." It is a way of constructing transistors. There are many ways to make transistors, even within one kind of transistor. As mentioned before, this is a distinct area from circuit design.

Liquid immersion lithography is not new, and was not really prompted by the latest process node transitions. It was proposed a long time ago and is simply a way of getting the effective wavelength down so that we can do smaller devices while keeping the usual issues of variation, edge coherence, and so on, in check. There are other solutions being worked on, as always.

The "Chinese foundries," meaning mostly SMIC, are indeed behind by about 2 generations. In fact, going by the timeline, they are behind by just over 2 generations. This is actually normal, given where they were before.

Intel is a US company, yes, but it is also very much an international company. Intel has many engineers from both China and India (probably many more than most people believe, just go to the cafeteria and take a look, it would pobably surprise most people). Some of them are now US citizens. Many have Green Cards but are not US citizens. Many are not even permanent residents, they have work visas. And many do not even reside in the US. They work from China and India. The same is true for a number of other large tech companies, particularly those in Silicon Valley. And yes, this often creates problems as there are restrictions in communication, even though often it does not make sense. For example, someone can come up with something, write it up, and after the document has gone through the process, the original author actually cannot read what he wrote.

As for HPC (High Peroformance Computing), or what many call Supercomputing, it is NOT just about hooking up a large number of processors. This is not only factually untrue, it is offensive and insulting to those of us who actually work in the area. Yes, financial resources is of course key, but the most critical aspect of HPC, in terms of design, is the interconnect fabric. Specifically, the Tianhe-2 has a very interesting design. And, more to the point, the control processor used in the fabric is, as far as I know, designed by the Chinese and fabbed by them. So while they are indeed behind in some key areas, for HPC they are actually doing very good work.

Thanks. Would you be kind enough to give your 2 cents on the packaging as in AESA which orginated some side discussions.
 

Engineer

Major
Personally, I have no idea what type of complexity is involved in packing it into a confined area and so it boils down to normal experience path. It can aslo be likewise argured that there was a significant lapse between what was put on a ship until they got it into the F-15.
The notion that China must repeat footsteps of others exactly is a fallacious one. As an example, the first carriers ran on coal, all converted from existing ships, launched propeller driven aircraft made out of wood that barely had enough power to lift themselves. China skipped all that, and nearly a century of trial-and-error that came afterward.

A piece of equipment made ten years before China did is not ten years ahead of what China can produce today. That technology is actually ten years out-of-date. Once manufactured, the state of a piece of technology is locked. A piece of technology is not a biological entity and doesn't grow. So the idea that China's 1st generation of AESA radar must be less capable than 1st generation of AESA radar produced by the West is a fallacious one as well.

All this indignancy can be done away immediately If there is a bit more transparency on the Chinese side. Speculation assumes a void in the absence of facts.
Absence of evidences is not evidence of absence.
 

Brumby

Major
So the idea that China's 1st generation of AESA radar must be less capable than 1st generation of AESA radar produced by the West is a fallacious one as well.
That wasn't the contention. You should at least try to get the facts right.

Absence of evidences is not evidence of absence.

Wrong application. The issue is not absence but the state of presence.
 

Engineer

Major
That wasn't the contention. You should at least try to get the facts right.
The contention has already been addressed in my previously reply, with an example showing China hasn't and doesn't need to follow the footsteps of others exactly. The particular statement you quoted addresses the fallacious idea presented within the article that started this whole discussion.

Wrong application. The issue is not absence but the state of presence.
The issue is exactly what my statement addressed: absence of evidences is not evidence of absence.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Again, cut out the arguing on semantics.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Building a world beating super computer nowadays is more about money than anything else. China has a lot of it and it wants prestige so they bought a lot of high-end intel CPUs and hooks them all together and there is the Tianhe-2 ;)

The truth is, if China is actually capable of designing a world beating super computer of their own, they would do so with THEIR OWN CPU (and not rely on Intel which is american).
What Hendricks said. Packaging gets easier as your elements get smaller. You're talking about shrinking elements, which is a different and more difficult challenge, but we actually know where China's at with element size, unlike many other variables.
 

Ultra

Junior Member
Allow me to introduce myself. I have been lurking for a few years. Normally I just watch, listen, learn, and do not comment, but there is just too much incorrect information. Given that it is my own field, I feel compelled to at least provide some correct information. Until 2012, I was a PE (Principal Engineer) at a very large processor company (the one with the letter "I"). There are many details I cannot share as that would violate NDA as well as ITAR.

There is confusion among Architecture, Micro Architecture, Circuit Design, Floorplanning, and Process Technology. These are distinct areas. "Packaging" is also a distinct area, and is mostly not what many seem to think it is.

There is no such thing as something "leaking voltage." Different kinds of transistors behave differently. For CMOS, leakage has always been an issue. This is not new. What is new is how serious the issue has become in the last two decades. There are different kinds of leakage. One is gate leakage. The use of High-K metal gates, specially, the use of hafnium, is around for years (can't say exactly how many), and this largely solves gate leakage. The much more serious issue is source-to-drain leakage. This has been an issue for decades, and is not new, and not specific to the recent process nodes. And CPUs, and circuits in general, can become "unstable" and fail to function properly for many reasons. Again, this is not specific to the recent process nodes.

The transition from 32nm to 28nm was not that hard, relatively speaking. It was certainly not as easy as the earlier transitions, but it was not nearly as hard as the later ones. And, while we are at it, a Xnm process is not always actually Xnm. Today that's often just the name of the process. It does not necessarily indicate the real minimum channel length of the devices.





Hi camelbird! Thanks for joining us and provide us with your expert insight.
About the 32 nm to 28 nm node transition - it was hard in my opinion - probably not for Intel but it was hard for everyone else for some unknown reason - eg. TSMC (world's largest dedicated independent semiconductor foundry) delayed the 28 nm node by almost 2 years (it was supposed to come out with it in 2010 - it came out in 2012 almost 2013), while Global Foundry also had huge delay to get their 28 nm node online.




The so-called TriGate, or, more correctly, FinFET, design has nothing to do with "futher packing of CPU circuitry by going 3 dimensionally." It is a way of constructing transistors. There are many ways to make transistors, even within one kind of transistor. As mentioned before, this is a distinct area from circuit design.

Liquid immersion lithography is not new, and was not really prompted by the latest process node transitions. It was proposed a long time ago and is simply a way of getting the effective wavelength down so that we can do smaller devices while keeping the usual issues of variation, edge coherence, and so on, in check. There are other solutions being worked on, as always.

The "Chinese foundries," meaning mostly SMIC, are indeed behind by about 2 generations. In fact, going by the timeline, they are behind by just over 2 generations. This is actually normal, given where they were before.

Intel is a US company, yes, but it is also very much an international company. Intel has many engineers from both China and India (probably many more than most people believe, just go to the cafeteria and take a look, it would pobably surprise most people). Some of them are now US citizens. Many have Green Cards but are not US citizens. Many are not even permanent residents, they have work visas. And many do not even reside in the US. They work from China and India. The same is true for a number of other large tech companies, particularly those in Silicon Valley. And yes, this often creates problems as there are restrictions in communication, even though often it does not make sense. For example, someone can come up with something, write it up, and after the document has gone through the process, the original author actually cannot read what he wrote.

As for HPC (High Peroformance Computing), or what many call Supercomputing, it is NOT just about hooking up a large number of processors. This is not only factually untrue, it is offensive and insulting to those of us who actually work in the area. Yes, financial resources is of course key, but the most critical aspect of HPC, in terms of design, is the interconnect fabric. Specifically, the Tianhe-2 has a very interesting design. And, more to the point, the control processor used in the fabric is, as far as I know, designed by the Chinese and fabbed by them. So while they are indeed behind in some key areas, for HPC they are actually doing very good work.



Perhaps my wording is wrong, but if you look at top500.org's list of super computers - majority of them all use the same interconnect (infiniband or Gigabit Ethernet or 10G) - with only very very few of them use exotic or custom design interconnect.


2014_Nov.jpg


I think Tianhe-2 might have benefited from having a specially tuned custom designed interconnect to improve its efficiency - but I think if they really want to, they could as well use the good ol' Infiniband (and incur some performance penalty) and they will still beat the world number 2 Titan by quite a bit of margin. But that's just my layman's opinion, what do you think?
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
@ Ultra ... yesterday I kindly requested You to stay on topic and even cut Your radar stuff out from the J-20-tread to this one ... but here again You are so much off that it is indeed a bit annoying !

Deino
 

camelbird

New Member
Registered Member
Thanks. Would you be kind enough to give your 2 cents on the packaging as in AESA which orginated some side discussions.

Sorry, no, because that is not my area. While there are things I do know, mostly from talking to people who do work in related areas, unless one actually does the work, one won't know what's relevant. This goes for pretty much everything.

One of the things I like about this forum is that there is good information and I learn a lot. One of the things, the only thing, I don't like is that there are often entirely off-topic posts. Unfortunately this includes 100% of my own posts. So, while there is a lot I can say, and I consider it rude to not answer direct questions, I do not wish to contribute to the noise.

Thankyou, Deino, and all the other mods.
 
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