Chinese military shovel


vesicles

Colonel
Perhaps you should pay more attention to the importance of the shovel to the military man during the major wars To the infrantry man it was the next important thing next to his rifle.You can forget about all the other fancy bits that could impede, its ability to dig a while the user is lying close to prone on the ground while under fire, thats gonna save ones butt. In short How do we know that its efficiency as a shovel, is severely compromised from the other strenuous uses?
I am not dismissing the importance of the shovel on the battlefield, nor was my argument directed that way. I was simply arguing that the Chinese military shovel shown in the video seems to be a meaningful substitute of a dedicated shovel, although it may not be as effective. We don't know since none of us has physically tested it. Things that LOOK flimsy may not be so. Just look at the original J-10A.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
I've had some (unpleasant) experience with the shovel. Digging is hardwork. Your back aches like mad after you've been at it for a while against packed soil.
I take it you were using a regular length shovel. try digging bending over with one of those folding types and then youll know all about backpain. When I worked in the forestry I use to walk quite away into the plantations to take soil samples.and hence I would have one of those folding shovels. Try digging into weather, and machinery impacted hardened clay. ... near impossible/:(. Sometimes I would be carrying a rifle fora bit of deer shooting.
 
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rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
My issue with folding spades/shovels is that they tend to be weaker at the pivot points, hence my doubt to subjecting it to other strenous uses until "Troika" pointed out that "Milspec" would possibly make them better, though i couldn't really determine whether the Chinese made one was in the best quality category.Hopwever as you all pointed out earlier the Chinese make their products cheaply, durability being futherest from their mind.
I am sorry... but I feel that I have to defend the Chinese quality a bit here. True there are alot of rumour saying that chinese built product are kind of a bs. But truely if you look around you abit, you would find that that might not be a case. I have hammers, saws and chisels that I used quite a bit, that came from China... no problem with them. In actual fact, if well maintained, these equipment can last years... no problem at all.

And I believe that if it was truely the Chinese military spec that these shovels are actually built up to, the quality could be quite good too... I don't see Chinese made AK-variant of rifle falling apart readily... in actual fact, I saw Singapore made M16S1, fall apart the moment I drop it (sorry, maybe my rifle is kind of a bs).

Also if you looked at other consumer product that the Chinese made... well... I have a pair of Nike shoes... wore them for more than 1 year, until the soles wore out, but the stitching still hold.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
I am sorry... but I feel that I have to defend the Chinese quality a bit here. True there are alot of rumour saying that chinese built product are kind of a bs. But truely if you look around you abit, you would find that that might not be a case. I have hammers, saws and chisels that I used quite a bit, that came from China... no problem with them. In actual fact, if well maintained, these equipment can last years... no problem at all.

And I believe that if it was truely the Chinese military spec that these shovels are actually built up to, the quality could be quite good too... I don't see Chinese made AK-variant of rifle falling apart readily... in actual fact, I saw Singapore made M16S1, fall apart the moment I drop it (sorry, maybe my rifle is kind of a bs).

Also if you looked at other consumer product that the Chinese made... well... I have a pair of Nike shoes... wore them for more than 1 year, until the soles wore out, but the stitching still hold.

:roll:You would have to be sh..t unlucky to break a hammer.

Seriously Quality Chinese made .......is a puzzle, while theres some very good stuff, theres also a load of rubbish.

Last year I missed out on a very good Chinese made impact drill, used by many construction /builders etc at $100 with all the extras it was by far the better buy when compared to the more well known brands at (3xplus) the trade price.

I recently came across a web site promoting this book "Poorly Made in China" by Paul Midler. I think the reviewer is rather biased against China and appears to be in full agreement with the writer. Still I might get around to acquiring a copy for a read. However reading the review it sounds like the " same old same old" and possibly dated

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Is China really a modern country? Can China be a modern country? Paul Midler’s book leaves you wondering.

After studying Chinese at college, Midler lived and worked in mainland China through the 1990s before returning to the U.S.A. to take a business degree. In 2001 he went back to China, setting himself up as a consultant to American importers dealing with Chinese manufacturers. This has given him profound insights into the Chinese way of doing business. In Poorly Made in China he shares those insights. After reading his book, you will find yourself thinking carefully before putting Made in China items into your shopping cart.

Midler identifies the features of China’s production environment that make a joke of all the free-trade slogans. There is, for example, “quality fade.” You cut a deal with a Chinese manufacturer to import beauty lotions in plastic bottles. You give precise specifications for the product and container. The first shipments are fine. Then customers begin to complain that the plastic of the bottles is too thin. You squeeze a bottle, it collapses. It turns out that your manufacturer has quietly adjusted the molds so that less plastic goes into making each bottle. Neither the importer nor his customers has been told of the change.

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The reason for this:

Factories did not see an attention to quality as something that would improve their business prospects, but merely as a barrier to increased profitability. Working to achieve higher levels of quality did not make me a friend of the factory, but a pariah.

In this, as in much else, the Chinese are great testers of limits. Just how much “quality fade” can a supplier get away with before the business relationship breaks down? You can be sure they will find out, and stop short a millimeter before the electric fence.

Then there is intellectual-property arbitrage. Under pressure from the advanced nations, the flagrant disregard for intellectual-property rights that was on display in China through the 1980s and 1990s has been brought under some measure of control, but much of it has just gone underground. As Midler writes, “Americans somehow imagined that Chinese factories existed to manufacture merchandise only for the United States, but this was not the view from China at all.”

From the point of view of a Chinese manufacturer, the world is divided into “first” and “second” markets. In the first market — North America, Western Europe, Japan, Australia, and some lesser outposts of legal order — new product designs originate, and the designs are protected by patent, trademark, and copyright laws. By all means go along with that: Get business relationships going with customers in those places. Manufacture according to their designs, observe their laws, give them good deals — even sell to them below cost. Then sell knock-offs of their designs to Latin America and the Middle East, where intellectual-property protection is not so valued. This arbitrage game explains the curious fact that Chinese-made products are often more expensive in the developing world than in the U.S.A. That’s where the profits are made.

The most vexing game to Midler was the one in which Chinese manufacturers relentlessly play off importers against buyers. Everyone is trying to make a profit, of course: the manufacturer from the importer, the importer from the U.S. store chain’s buyers, the store chain from the retail customer. The importer is at the Chinese end of this linkage, negotiating with the Chinese manufacturer, and must bear the brunt of Chinese gamesmanship.

Manufacturers are highly skilled at shifting profit margins from the importers to themselves. If a Chinese factory boss knows any English at all, Midler tells us, it is likely to be the phrase: “Price go up!” Whether the manufacturer’s costs actually have gone up is impossible to ascertain, accounting standards in China being, well, Chinese. Since the importer-buyer deal is fixed under American law, the importer must swallow the manufacturer’s price increases, which happened under Chinese law — which is to say, no law at all.

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But then the importer can switch to another manufacturer, right? Not necessarily:

The health and beauty care industry was one that existed in a tight network. Some manufacturers in the industry were even related to one another. Others shared an educational background. . . . Others shared a kinship that was based in part on membership in the Communist Party. And then some had suppliers in common.

How skillful are Chinese manufacturers at gaming the free-trade system? Think three-card monte. One of Midler’s key import contacts in the U.S.A. is a man he calls Bernie. We learn in Chapter 4 that Bernie belongs to the Syrian-Jewish community, the most capable and exclusive of all the world’s “market-dominant minorities.” (They refer to ordinary Jews like Paul Midler rather dismissively as “jay-dubs,” from the consonants in “Jew.”)

Yet with all his savvy and connections, Bernie is outfoxed time and again by the Chinese. He turns the tables on them just once, in Chapter 21, but his advantage is merely temporary. The worldly and confident Jewish diamond dealer in Chapter 15 fares even worse. This would be a mighty King Kong vs. Godzilla clash of market-dominant minorities, except that the Chinese are on their home turf — actually a majority. Outsiders stand no chance.

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With his strong background in Chinese history and culture, Midler is able to identify some of the underlying problems. Many of his vexations echo those voiced by foreigners in China for half a millennium or more: a love of excuse and pretense, the elevation of appearance over substance, admiration for unprincipled cleverness, shame a much stronger sanction than guilt. The old stereotype of the Chinese as chronic gamblers has some foundation in the Chinese psyche, too, as Midler notes:

The impression I got at some of the factories that engaged in quality manipulation schemes is that they did so after growing bored with their more conventional successes. . . . There was a great deal of excitement that came with getting a new business off the ground. These manufacturers were thrilled when they signed up their first major customer, and they got another kick from orders that were especially large. When deal flow leveled out, factory owners looked for other ways in which they could capture that hint of thrill.

All these quirks of national character would be harmlessly amusing in a business environment constrained by impartial law and rational politics, as indeed is the case in Hong Kong and Singapore, and increasingly in Taiwan. In mainland China’s barbarously low level of political and legal development, they express as poisonous pathologies — metaphorically poisonous to a healthy capitalist mentality, but sometimes literally poisonous to the unwary consumer, as we have seen in the recent scandals over toys, baby food, and pet food.

None of this will come right until the current odious dictatorship falls and the Chinese have a system of government worthy of their great talents and civilizational glories. Can we do anything to help? We might have, once. Paul Midler:
 
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rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
I have some experience with the Chinese, having a factory in China and plenty of vendors and suppliers there to build our product's parts... And what many had said... is sadly... true.

I have this theory... the standards that these chinese set for themselves is much too low and so many things that seemed unacceptable by our standards is perfectly okay for them. However this is changing... so as the standards of the chinese get higher, so will their quality.
 

Quickie

Major
" With his strong background in Chinese history and culture, Midler is able to identify some of the underlying problems. Many of his vexations echo those voiced by foreigners in China for half a millennium or more: a love of excuse and pretense, the elevation of appearance over substance, admiration for unprincipled cleverness, shame a much stronger sanction than guilt. The old stereotype of the Chinese as chronic gamblers has some foundation in the Chinese psyche, too, as Midler notes:

"

Is this not racial stereotyping in a offending way?




.....I have this theory... the standards that these chinese set for themselves is much too low and so many things that seemed unacceptable by our standards is perfectly okay for them. However this is changing... so as the standards of the chinese get higher, so will their quality.
Giving the chinese manufacturers a better profit margin would help, but I'm quite sure, that won't be an option for the buyers, despite their relatively enormous profit margins they themselves make. The buyers will probably give loads of excuses (most of them - its truthfullness aside - you probably can find in that book, I guess) why better profit margins are not the answers to better quality products.

Looking at this matter in another way, imo, business people are smart people. That's why you don't find them openly thanking the manufacturers (Chinese ones in this case) for producing equipment that only last long enough for the customers to start thinking of buying new ones.

Some of the faults are of course design related but I doubt the buyers/designers would correct the design, just so the product would last for a lot more years than the "lifetime" of the product.
 
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vesicles

Colonel
I have some experience with the Chinese, having a factory in China and plenty of vendors and suppliers there to build our product's parts... And what many had said... is sadly... true.

I have this theory... the standards that these chinese set for themselves is much too low and so many things that seemed unacceptable by our standards is perfectly okay for them. However this is changing... so as the standards of the chinese get higher, so will their quality.
Well, I think of the situation in China like a group of starving people who finally see food for the fist time in a long while. They become so eager to get food that they crave so much that they couldn't care less about anything else. This would be especially the case when a few of them got extra share of the food. The rest becomes jealous and even more hungry.

This happens to anyone and everyone in a similar similar situation no matter the nationality. sadly, what most the Westerners have been seeing has always been Chinese people starving since most of the East-meets-West things happened within the past century when the Chinese economy and political system had been in a decline. So it's automatically considered to be "cultural". But in reality, it's simply human nature that the contemporary Chinese do things this way. I'm sure Chinese, as well as anyone else, would do things differently in a different situation. My mom always says that Chinese products made in 50's and 60's were so much better. She always mentions a pair of her shoes that she bought in the 60's and apparently, she still wears them regularly today (that's 40 years of wear and tear). That's the kind of the quality of the products back then. Much higher moral code was upheld then. Compare that to shoes she buys today? She bought a pair of shoes (happened to be made in China) a couple years ago at Target. She wore them once and the bottom fell off. As you can see, same type of item made in China by the people with same cultural and national background. Completely different behavior and outcome.

So it's not about the culture or nationality, but situation. The same people tend to do things differently in different situations. The famous Confucius said that when a man is poor, he would do unethical things. This is true everywhere on this planet. So in that logic, the situation will become better when Chinese become wealthier and not so desperate.
 
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Quickie

Major
The problem should be viewed in a wider perspective.


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English.news.cn 2010-05-12 16:27:32 FeedbackPrintRSS

BEIJING, May 12 (Xinhua) -- The proportion of China's GDP that goes towards wages and salaries has continued to shrink since 1983, a senior trade union official said here Wednesday.

According to Zhang Jianguo, chief of Collective Contracts Department with the All China Federation of Trade Unions (ACFTU), the proportion of the country's GDP that makes up wages and salaries peaked at 56.5 percent in 1983 and dropped to 36.7 percent in 2005.

"That proportion hasn't changed too much since 2005," Zhang said in an interview posted on the ACFTU's website, adding the proportion of returns on capital in GDP had risen by 20 percent in 27 years ending 2005.

According to a survey released by ACFTU Wednesday, almost one fourth of Chinese employees had not seen a salary rise in the past five years.
Zhang said it was very difficult to promote the capital-labor negotiation system for determining employee wages, the most effective way of increasing workers' salaries.

By 2009, there were a total of more than 1.2 million collective contracts nationwide, covering more than 2.1 million enterprises and 161 million employees.

Low pay, long working hours and poor working conditions were partly to blame for the shortage of migrant workers in areas of the Pearl River Delta and the Yangtze River Delta at the beginning of this year, Zhang said.

When delivering the government work report this March, Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao vowed to reform the income distribution system and gradually increase wages and salaries.

In the first quarter of 2010, seven provinces and municipalities such as Jiangsu, Zhejiang and Shanghai had increased their minimum-wage standards by 10 percent to 17 percent while another 20 provinces planned to adjust their minimum-wage level this year, according to the Ministry of Human Resources and Social Security.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
"

Is this not racial stereotyping in a offending way?
Its racial stereotyping, and its wrong for Midler to "tar" all chinese with the same brush. I dont have anything against Jews but I find it a compliment in a perverted sort of way for a "Chinese" to outsmart a "Jewish diamond trader", even though hes bound to claim it was through "skull duggery"
Offensive? IMO itwould be at the lower end of the scale, however it does provide "more grist for the mill" However I think its a matter of perception, rather than a comment made from perception, because I cant imagine anyone who had a dislike for the Chinese, spend near to a couple of decades living in China.


We can find many excuses for the Chinese manufacturers practice of product fade, and unfortunately the poor reputation that comes from it would be an encumberment to manufacturers endevouring to move up the product line for a long time to come.
Just surfing net and reading articles on Toyota's and Honda's car problems, one invariably finds comments made by some readers attributing the problems to having car parts made in China etc.etc.

Last week I took my 2005 Volvo V70 to the dealers for servicing, and having bought another car off them in the past, I was asked whether I was in the market for a new 2010 model.

THe gist of a drawn out conversation I had with the dealers was that I could be assurred of Volvo quality with a 2010 purchase... yada yada yada, but the same could not be said, if at some point Geely started to insist Chinese car parts were used instead of the current suppliers. A rather strange thing to say, I thought since some parts of the top of the line "S80" are made in Thailand. But I could see the point he was trying to make.

In short I think he was telling me the Volvos would still be fine cars, as long as Geely/the Chinese kept the association to a distant one. So Geely's got a hard sell on that one, with Western buyers, if thats the prevalent western mindset.

@ Vesicles

My mom always says that Chinese products made in 50's and 60's were so much better. She always mentions a pair of her shoes that she bought in the 60's and apparently, she still wears them regularly today (that's 40 years of wear and tear). That's the kind of the quality of the products back then. Much higher moral code was upheld then. Compare that to shoes she buys today? She bought a pair of shoes (happened to be made in China) a couple years ago at Target. She wore them once and the bottom fell off. As you can see, same type of item made in China by the people with same cultural and national background. Completely different behavior and outcome.

So it's not about the culture or nationality, but situation. The same people tend to do things differently in different situations. The famous Confucius said that when a man is poor, he would do unethical things. This is true everywhere on this planet. So in that logic, the situation will become better when Chinese become wealthier and not so desperate.
HUh? I thought the Chinese of the 50's/60's were worse off than ones of today.

Are you familiar with those Italian Pasta maker thingys, I once saw a Chinese copy of one for sale in a Chinese Emporium around the early 70's. It would have to be the worst Chinese made product Ive ever seen. It looked like it had been put together by someone who "couldnt give a sh-t"
 
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rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
As pointed out by someone before (I just couldn't bother to find that post and quote him again), today's consumer products is no longer what it used to be in the past. Not that the quality had drop, but because things get so unfashionable very quickly. I remember when I was in this consumer electronic lines, none of my company's products lines lasted more than a year before customers began demanding new gadgets.

So as you can see, it had become something like, you don't design things that last forever, give your customers a good 1 year warranty (in some cases, just a six month warranty and it would suffices), and people are perfectly happy about it.

The type of quality expectation of nowadays customers was very much different from the expectation of customers in the past. Nowaday, we don't go for things that cannot spoilt, a walkman that can be use for ten years... and stuff like that. We go for something that is nice looking, fashionable... and once something cool came out, our current stuff will be out of the window in no time!

So there really is no need for the Chinese to built something that can last forever.

That might be different in term of vehicle though. But even at this moment, in the past, people would drive their cars for ten to twenty years, no problem, but with current market... at least in Singapore, as long as your car is more than 5 years old, it is consider old.

So quality is actually also determine by market demands too. No point spending so much in a product design and manufacturing, and in the end added cost to potential customers and lose the entire market. Rather, I would expect to design and manufacture a nice looking product with 'okay' quality (which mean it is good for the warranty that came with it) and sell it at low cost to the customers, while bringing in enough to quickly R&D into new products that could overtake these old ones in less than a year.

So to surmarise, speed+cost+innovation is what drive nowadays manufacturers and designers, rather than indestructible quality.
 

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