Chinese Hypersonic Developments (HGVs/HCMs)

latenlazy

Brigadier
As I had stated before fluid mechanics is a well known and defined science. The variables you talk about is nothing that can't be calculated. Also on a 50cm physical model cannot pick up in millimeter grid detail a computer generated simulation can provide. You also cannot gain any knowledge during a turn with a physical wind tunnel at high mach speed. Wind sheer tension can also not be measured precisely in a physical model.
Like I said you don't do a physical test on a actual model these days to optimize aerodynamics of a plane.
Umm...fluid dynamics and thermodynamics in extreme conditions (like hypersonic flight) is not so well defined where you can just do everything in a simulation, especially when they involve complex objects. A lot of the general rules may be well studied and understood by now, and of course you can start with a simulation to explore designs, but when you are developing a design in full you will still need to do physical testing. Specific designs are not the same thing as generalized conditions. No serious engineer or scientist ever presumes that they have everything accounted for in a simulation when handling specific and discrete solutions.

Saying that physical and wind tunnel tests are completely unnecessary is at best a gross oversimplification that overlooks or disrespects the actual rigors of the engineering and science involved.
 
Last edited:

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Aughh, forerunner of avionics already adopted computer simulation and had done away with physical tests for modeling a long time ago. These days you utilize super computers and analyze wind sheers in millimeter grids which cannot be done with actual physical tests.

This is just the typically unthinking nonsense you keep coming up with.

You think China doesn't have supercomputers to do simulations?

Anyone with any background in data analysis will know the first and most important rule to any analysis work is, Junk in Junk out. If you feed in bad data, your results will never be right no matter how super your computer is.

Why do you think everyone still does real life tests? For lolz? Do you even know how computer modelling works?

You need to do real life testing to learn how things react and interact, what forces are applied and where etc - all the basic rules and values and parameters you need to programme your computer to create a virtual simulation with the same rules, values and behaviour as real life (or usually as close to the real thing as computing power and understanding allows) so you can try things out virtually without having to go through the trouble and expense of real life testing.

But you still need to conduct real life testing to see how your models stack up against reality, and you will want to do that as often as possible.

The difference is that without a wind tunnel that can do such high speeds, the Americans had to make assumptions in their modelling and analysis, and could not check their workings until they did a real life scale model test, which is why their hypersonic glider failed - their underlying assumptions were wrong, so everything based off of that all proved wrong.

China has been able to do real life testing in a wind tunnel at the speeds they were aiming for to see what the actual conditions are like at those speeds, so when they fed their observed figures on their own supercomputer, the calculations proved much closer to reality, and would have helped massively in allowing them to succeed with their design.

The main difference is it would have cost China pennies on the dollar for their tests compared to the Americans, and the set up times would have been correspondingly shorter. Thus they were able to do a lot more regular tests until they got it right. At which point they would then have proceeded to conduction live tests to check for real life factors they might not have considered and/or been able to accurately replicate with their wind tunnels (which appears to be what was being reported upon).

If that is indeed the case, China may well be years ahead of the American team now, who are still busy crunching the numbers from their first, failed test.

The Chinese team almost certainly also have made mistakes or omissions and failed with some of their earlier tests, as you are extremely unlikely to get something this advance right the first time round.

Assuming Chinese and American engineers are of a similar level, the more times China failed with their testing, the further the Americans are behind, as China has all of those failures behind them, while the Americans still has all the steps the Chinese team had to take from their first failed test to their current successful one in front of them.
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Augh, what most of you have failed in terms of research in depth is to acknowledge the US and many western nations had done all the physical test in the 60's~70's and have all the telemetries and data they need to do the computer simulations.
PRC is merely doing catch up in this region.

Another point is the major aeronautic nations would have been able to slash their research in half if they had the computer power we have now back then.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Augh, what most of you have failed in terms of research in depth is to acknowledge the US and many western nations had done all the physical test in the 60's~70's and have all the telemetries and data they need to do the computer simulations.
PRC is merely doing catch up in this region.

Another point is the major aeronautic nations would have been able to slash their research in half if they had the computer power we have now back then.

So the US mastered hypersonic flight in the 60s and 70s now? What parallel universe are you living in right now? :rolleyes:

What you singularly seems unable and/or unwilling to acknowledge is that things start behaving differently and strangely as they go really really fast, and the normal rules of fluid dynamics starts to stop working so well.

That is why everyone is working so hard and putting so much resources into understanding hypersonic flight.

You may also want to do some basic research before you keep speak about supercomputers like its some mythical legend unknown to the Chinese. Who currently has the world's fasters supercomputer again? :rolleyes:
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Augh, what most of you have failed in terms of research in depth is to acknowledge the US and many western nations had done all the physical test in the 60's~70's and have all the telemetries and data they need to do the computer simulations.
PRC is merely doing catch up in this region.
.

Soo...how come they are having trouble succeeding in their flight test with the HGV on par with China WU-14? Of course this is not a knock on them, just your silly quote that's all. Japan can't even catch up to China in stealth fighter, HGV, radar, man space program (NO we're not talking about joint venture with NASA), High Speed Rail development and production, 3D technology, and the list goes on.:rolleyes:o_O
 

a1a2a3a4a5a6a

New Member
Registered Member
Computer simulations aren't sufficient because the hydrodynamic problem is still unsolved at certain limits.

"Famous Fluid Equations Are Incomplete

Slemrod “gives very solid arguments that Korteweg hydrodynamics has a much wider area of applicability than Navier-Stokes,” said Gorban, who is now a professor of applied mathematics at the University of Leicester in England. Still, Gorban notes,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
suggests that some gases of particles cannot even be captured by the Korteweg equations. When short-distance interactions between particles become strong enough, he said, such as at the edge of a shock wave, even capillarity cannot fully account for their behavior, and “there exist no hydrodynamics........ Slemrod hopes that employing the Korteweg equations rather than Navier-Stokes will be useful for modeling near-vacuum gases, like the thin air surrounding orbiting satellites. “My hope is that it might be possible to use this corrected version down near the vacuum instead of the Boltzmann equation, [which] is a nasty object to solve,” he said.”

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


By the way, Terence Tao is also working on similar problems.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Augh, what most of you have failed in terms of research in depth is to acknowledge the US and many western nations had done all the physical test in the 60's~70's and have all the telemetries and data they need to do the computer simulations.
PRC is merely doing catch up in this region.

Another point is the major aeronautic nations would have been able to slash their research in half if they had the computer power we have now back then.
Now you're just changing your argument. "The US has already collected all theirs telemetric data" is not the same as "physical testing is unnecessary with supercomputers".

That said, I don't simply buy the argument that the US *has* collected all their telemetric data. For one, if they didn't they wouldn't be doing concept and experimental live tests. Second, just because we don't hear about some advanced hypersonic tunnel doesn't mean those don't exist and aren't being used.
 

vesicles

Colonel
Computer simulations aren't sufficient because the hydrodynamic problem is still unsolved at certain limits.

"Famous Fluid Equations Are Incomplete

Slemrod “gives very solid arguments that Korteweg hydrodynamics has a much wider area of applicability than Navier-Stokes,” said Gorban, who is now a professor of applied mathematics at the University of Leicester in England. Still, Gorban notes,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
suggests that some gases of particles cannot even be captured by the Korteweg equations. When short-distance interactions between particles become strong enough, he said, such as at the edge of a shock wave, even capillarity cannot fully account for their behavior, and “there exist no hydrodynamics........ Slemrod hopes that employing the Korteweg equations rather than Navier-Stokes will be useful for modeling near-vacuum gases, like the thin air surrounding orbiting satellites. “My hope is that it might be possible to use this corrected version down near the vacuum instead of the Boltzmann equation, [which] is a nasty object to solve,” he said.”

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


By the way, Terence Tao is also working on similar problems.

Completely agreed! It is a complete myth that simulations can substitute actual experiments. since all simulations are based on the knowledge that we already know (you have to plug in all the parameters already measured and use known equations), those who believe simulations can substitute experiments literally assume that we have already known everything about our planet and our universe. Since we are so far away from that, experiments are absolutely essential. In fact, every step of the simulation needs to be validated by experiments.

The strength of simulations is at discovering/proposing new phenomena, which cannot be directly tested by experiments, based on existing theories. The biggest limitation of simulations is that it has to be done within the box of existing theories. You will never be able to break out of the box using simulations. Thus, you will never be able to make new breakthrough using simulations.

Simulations are excellent tools that can help us with many aspect of research. However, simulations should always be combined with experiment to achieve its full potential.
 
Top