Chinese Engine Development

thunderchief

Senior Member
Precisely

I still remember Tu-4 is a copy of B-29, right from even the screw and nuts by Russian. At that time, some countries was able to make a copy of B-29 show the level of technology advancement of the country. .

Actually Tu-4 was not complete copy of the B-29 . Like Chinese today , Soviets were somewhat behind in materials science . They had to use different alloy and different thickness of sheets . Engines installed were also different because Soviet Union could not produce same type of fuel Americans used . Also , the armament was Soviet .
Resulting aircraft had somewhat worse flight characteristics then B-29 (at least first iteration without modification) but it was good enough for intended purpose . Btw , when Tu-95 became available , many Tu-4s were given to China .;)
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
However backward the Russians were one has to give them props. They built the TU4 dispute the fact that the B29 was built with old Imperial measurements well the USSR used metric. They only had a handful of units yet they worked to exacting detail. They Developed from it Transport versions and integrated into it coaxial contra-rotating propellers. even today B29 features can bee seen in Russian Bombers.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
if you can build a better engine, whose to say it will fail? rolls royce, pratt & whittney, and g.e. are the oldest and most experienced firms with a stranglehold on the premier intellectual capital for designing turbofans. sure they will "share" but only when it benefits themselves better than their partners. at the end of the day, they will never share their crucial trade secrets, because they represent an oligopoly in the aerospace sector.

oligopolies form because a few companies realize that they have what others just can't get, and they can dominate the market if they agree to work together to restrict market entry. this way they get higher profits than if everyone could do what they could.

Things do not work like that, i will give you a few examples.

Panavia Tornado has engines build under a consortium

The Turbo-Union RB199 is an aircraft turbofan jet engine designed and built by Turbo-Union, a joint venture between Rolls-Royce, MTU and FiatAvio.


Sepecat Jaguar is the same
see

The Rolls-Royce Turbomeca Adour is a two-shaft turbofan aircraft engine developed by Rolls-Royce Turbomeca Limited, a joint subsidiary of Rolls-Royce (UK) and Turbomeca (France).

Eurofighter is the same

EuroJet Turbo GmbH is a multi-national consortium, the partner companies of which are Rolls-Royce plc, Avio of Italy, ITP of Spain and MTU Aero Engines of Germany. It is based in Hallbergmoos near Munich.




These are military jet engines.

China aerospace has a military origin, specially the jet engines.
However they have managed to get old speys for the JH-7.

Now let us see other international programs

MTU Aero Engines GmbH is Germany's leading aircraft engine manufacturer
Products Civil
PW4000Growth, partner to Pratt & Whitney.
PW1000G, partner to Pratt & Whitney.
PW2000, partner to Pratt & Whitney.
PW6000, partner to Pratt & Whitney.
PW300, partner to Pratt & Whitney.
PW500, partner to Pratt & Whitney.
JT8D, partner to Pratt & Whitney.
GP7000, partner to Engine Alliance.
V2500, partner to International Aero Engines.
GEnx, partner to General Electric.
CF6, subcontracting to General Electric.
Military
TP400, as part of the Europrop International consortium.
EJ200, as part of the EuroJet Turbo GmbH consortium.
MTR390, as part of the MTU Turbomeca Rolls-Royce (MTR) consortium.
RB199, as part of the Turbo-Union consortium.
F414, subcontracting to General Electric.
F110, subcontracting to General Electric.
J79, partner to General Electric.
GE38, partner to General Electric.
T64, partner to General Electric



Can China do partnerships the answer is yes, but to do them you need partners who trust you


China only real partner in Military isssues is Russia but they could do more partnerships with the US for sure in civil aerospace.


Why do partnerships? first is not to multiply programs that will requiere more money to each single company and some which might fail.

Second is market, you increase your market.


Russia in many was has been isolated because first their jets only have russian engines except Sukhoi Superjet and the future MS21.

How well their engine will become i do not know but their risks is their engines might not come on time an might become economically ineffecient since the other side is also investing in technology.

If they are successful they will get a great capacity but for for sure is not the west to blame, if you want is both sides that still have mistrusts and issues in order to do engines in joint ventures.

But if China wants tech trasnfers they will need another policy since the one they have has limits.
 

broadsword

Brigadier
Mig-29,


You have not answered all the rebuttals like those made by Engineer, Lion, etc. Otherwise, there will always be holes in your argument and your campaign sound suspicious. You cannot be selective with who you reply to for the aforementioned reasons.
 

Engineer

Major
Things do not work like that, i will give you a few examples.

Panavia Tornado has engines build under a consortium

The Turbo-Union RB199 is an aircraft turbofan jet engine designed and built by Turbo-Union, a joint venture between Rolls-Royce, MTU and FiatAvio.


Sepecat Jaguar is the same
see

The Rolls-Royce Turbomeca Adour is a two-shaft turbofan aircraft engine developed by Rolls-Royce Turbomeca Limited, a joint subsidiary of Rolls-Royce (UK) and Turbomeca (France).

Eurofighter is the same

EuroJet Turbo GmbH is a multi-national consortium, the partner companies of which are Rolls-Royce plc, Avio of Italy, ITP of Spain and MTU Aero Engines of Germany. It is based in Hallbergmoos near Munich.




These are military jet engines.

China aerospace has a military origin, specially the jet engines.
However they have managed to get old speys for the JH-7.

Now let us see other international programs

MTU Aero Engines GmbH is Germany's leading aircraft engine manufacturer
Products Civil
PW4000Growth, partner to Pratt & Whitney.
PW1000G, partner to Pratt & Whitney.
PW2000, partner to Pratt & Whitney.
PW6000, partner to Pratt & Whitney.
PW300, partner to Pratt & Whitney.
PW500, partner to Pratt & Whitney.
JT8D, partner to Pratt & Whitney.
GP7000, partner to Engine Alliance.
V2500, partner to International Aero Engines.
GEnx, partner to General Electric.
CF6, subcontracting to General Electric.
Military
TP400, as part of the Europrop International consortium.
EJ200, as part of the EuroJet Turbo GmbH consortium.
MTR390, as part of the MTU Turbomeca Rolls-Royce (MTR) consortium.
RB199, as part of the Turbo-Union consortium.
F414, subcontracting to General Electric.
F110, subcontracting to General Electric.
J79, partner to General Electric.
GE38, partner to General Electric.
T64, partner to General Electric


Can China do partnerships the answer is yes, but to do them you need partners who trust you


China only real partner in Military isssues is Russia but they could do more partnerships with the US for sure in civil aerospace.


Why do partnerships? first is not to multiply programs that will requiere more money to each single company and some which might fail.

Second is market, you increase your market.


If partnership is so great, then why is Russia building PAKFA instead of buying F-35? PAKFA is just a reinvention of wheel and a waste of money according to you.

If partnership is so great, why is Russia building is own airliners instead of buying from Airbus and Boeing? The Sukhoi Superjet and MS-21 are full of western components anyway, so Russia may as well save even more money by completely cooperating with the West through giving up domestic programs and not hiring Russian engineers.

If partnership is so great, why are Airbus and Boeing building aircraft separately, and why are there so many airlines instead of just one?

If partnership is so great, why do Rolls Royce and Pratt and Whitney make engines that compete with each other?

If partnership is so great, why are there so many car manufacturers instead of just one, and why do these manufacturers waste so much resources reinventing wheel after wheel instead of coming together to build just one vehicle for everybody?

The answer is that your argument on partnership is completely out of touch with reality. Imagination is great, as in it the world has ever lasting peace and everybody works together... to go to Mars and beyond. However, reality says that it is human nature to compete. Even cooperation is born out of the needs of competing. Cooperation is temporary, whereas competition is ever lasting. The only good partner is a dead partner.

Before China can reverse engineer successfully, the West stills tried to impede China's development by limiting materials and tooling. So, the issue is never about China's reverse engineering activities. The issue is that the West is trying to keep a military monopoly over others; it is about having power over someone else. For the West to trust China, China must become another India or Mexico that has no capability of its own. You will not chop off your arms and legs to save a few bucks, so why should China?

The issue is also similar between China and Russia. What Russia wants is for China to become another India and get on the chopping board so that Russia can extort money. Russia has no intention to cooperate with China. If there is any sense of cooperation from Russia at all, Russia would have shared its pie by incorporating Chinese avionics as an option when exporting Russian military hardware. Instead, Russia wants to keep everything, then wants China's pie as well.


Russia in many was has been isolated because first their jets only have russian engines except Sukhoi Superjet and the future MS21.

How well their engine will become i do not know but their risks is their engines might not come on time an might become economically ineffecient since the other side is also investing in technology.

If they are successful they will get a great capacity but for for sure is not the west to blame, if you want is both sides that still have mistrusts and issues in order to do engines in joint ventures.

But if China wants tech trasnfers they will need another policy since the one they have has limits.

Russia has plenty of engines of its own, but to fly in western sky Russia must use western components. That's the rule created by the West, because the West has a monopoly over commercial aviation. Everyone else including China and Russia has to pay protection money to get in. This is not cooperation at all.
 
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rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Can China do partnerships the answer is yes, but to do them you need partners who trust you


China only real partner in Military isssues is Russia but they could do more partnerships with the US for sure in civil aerospace.


Why do partnerships? first is not to multiply programs that will requiere more money to each single company and some which might fail.

Second is market, you increase your market.


Russia in many was has been isolated because first their jets only have russian engines except Sukhoi Superjet and the future MS21.

How well their engine will become i do not know but their risks is their engines might not come on time an might become economically ineffecient since the other side is also investing in technology.

If they are successful they will get a great capacity but for for sure is not the west to blame, if you want is both sides that still have mistrusts and issues in order to do engines in joint ventures.

But if China wants tech trasnfers they will need another policy since the one they have has limits.

Oh... stop embaraess yourself as of now, your integrity had just hit pass zero.

Okay, lets look into your argument.

Have you heard of the arms embargoment? Don't tell me it is because those that impose the embargoment to China because China copy their products. If that was the case, they would simply stop selling products to China instead of coming up with an embargoment and frankly speaking, I believe the Western companies would have wanted to sell their weapons to china. It is business.

Secondly, the Japanese and Germans and American and Koreans, etc had no trouble setting up automobile join venture with China... you go figure out why.

Thirdly, need I remind you, Boeing and Airbus had manufacturing lines in China. If they are that afraid of China copying, they would not have that... and if they are that afraid of China copying, why in the world would they even sell aircraft to China? Since China could copy everything.

Oh... and you argue that those things done are for civil aerospace... what a laugh...

As to why do partnerships, you ask. There are again multiple reasons for that. Market size is one of them, but if I can do everything myself and I would have 100% of the market to myself, why do I want a partner? Politic is another, because I might need a partner from that nation before I can get in, and that is not something to do with not having enough technology. To pull down the investment cost, as in all business, so instead of investing 100%, I get a partner and that would lower my investment cost to... say 60% or whatever the contract might state and that is common in the business world too.

Seriously Mig 29... I am surprise of all the arguments you put forth... first you talk about how good the Russian are (they really are, I am a big fan of the Sukhoi series of aircraft, by the way), then you talk about how good the Mexican are... well I have no comments in that because I do not know, somehow you add India to the equation... while all these nations are doing great, they are honest, they have no problem... but China is nothing but copier of others work? Seriously? You basically discount every achievement China had in aerospace engineering... every single aspect (although you sugar coated it abit), then stirred up others emotions in that. I mean, what is the motive behind all these? Why are you doing that?

Also... please stop coming up with what Russian chief designer say, some test pilots verdicts on Russian plane (btw, those test pilots are Russian test pilot working for the company that designed that plane). All these are nothing but sales pitch. We could easily come up with heaps in youtube of Chinese designers and test pilots (or actual pilots) who would say that J-10, J-11B and all other Chinese fighters are the best aircrafts around.

Now you are touching on business aspect of stuff? Oh... come on...
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Mig-29,


You have not answered all the rebuttals like those made by Engineer, Lion, etc. Otherwise, there will always be holes in your argument and your campaign sound suspicious. You cannot be selective with who you reply to for the aforementioned reasons.

I am selective for 2 reasons.

First many of the fellow forum members have already fixed views, they are not going to change their opinion, so what ever i say they will say no to me, if i say white they say black.
So this only will make the threat boring for other people.

Th other reason some people are not attacking my arguments but my person, since i m not Chinese it happens i have a different view, some people get offended if i post for example things in the media which do not conform to their views, so they start attacking me personally.

So no need to make the thread that long since them are there just to attack me and not to have a conversation.

So my silence me means i agree to disagree.

I answer to the fellow forum members to whom first are more open, to whom we can have conversation even if we disagree and those who attack my arguments politely without personal attacks.

In my opinion, China will control more IPR more issues because China as any nation needs investment, so like Mexico they need investment in aerospace.

I put my country as a example because i know why Mexico is doing that.


Chinese aerospace planers also are watching Mexico sucess in getting investment an access to some jet engine technology know how, so they will do a different policy to harmonize the interests of the foreign jet engine companies who want to invest in China.

Russia, India and Brazil will do similar strategies as well adapting their needs to harmonize them too why because they need investment in aerospace.

Globalization works like that.

regards
 
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kyanges

Junior Member
Chinese aerospace planers also are watching Mexico sucess in getting investment an access to some jet engine technology know how, so they will do a different policy to harmonize the interests of the foreign jet engine companies who want to invest in China.


Yes, Chinese aerospace planners got the idea to cooperate from Mexico.


Can a mod move the past few pages of this thread to somewhere else?
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Yes, Chinese aerospace planners got the idea to cooperate from Mexico.


Can a mod move the past few pages of this thread to somewhere else?

[video=youtube;dcozX4AVtDc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcozX4AVtDc[/video]

Interesting and funny how you want to claim only you should be allowed to post here, this video shows some western and Chinese view about the realities of engine design in China but i guess you want to only post here, exclude me since my view is from a non chinese person so you claim my opinions do not belong here.

probably if i post things like this you would like me to post

The sci-tech result has after all placed the Chinese jet-engine onto the historical stage for self-development, marking China to become, after the USA, Russia, Britain and France, the fifth country in the world that is able to design and manufacture independently the jet-engine.
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But i worder how real is this since Ukraine makes engines to power L-15 and Japan makes Jet engines to power T-4 flown early in the 1990s and IHI makes the engine that powers P-x

The Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries (IHI) F3 is a low bypass turbofan engine developed in Japan by Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries for the Kawasaki T-4 trainer aircraft. The first prototype engine, the XF3, was manufactured in 1981 and first flew in the XT-4 in July 1985.

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The Hongdu L-15 comprises six hard points of which four are located under the two wings and two under the wing-tips. It can accommodate 3,000kg of payload. The aircraft can carry short range air-to-air missiles, air-to-ground missiles, bombs and rocket pods.

Ivchenko Progress AI-222K-25F Engines
The aircraft is powered by two Ivchenko Progress AI-222K-25F afterburning turbofan engines. Each engine can generate 4,200kg of thrust afterburner

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Or Germany has MTU, Italy Avio, Spain Sener (ITP) which make an operational engine used on Tornados and Eurofighters.

I guess germany is not capable of making jet engines by their own

Is it good go alone well? In Europe Germany does not do that and has a operational engine
 
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