Chinese Engine Development

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GiantPanda

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While putting the Japanese and their F-15Js in a precarious position, the PLAAF/PLANAF were doing the same to the RoCAF.

Two campaigns that basically wore down two modern 4th gen air fleets powered by F100/110 class with the WS-10.

Whatever the lead on Chinese engines, it's not enough to deter an attrittion campaign that depended directly on the volume of flights and the ability of the opposing engines to keep up.

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The increased number of aircraft and greater sophistication had a negative effect on Taiwan’s military. By October 2020, then-Minister of National Defense Yen Teh-fa said that the air force and navy had spent over NT$30 billion, or
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to intercept and monitor the sorties, including nearly 3,000 Taiwanese sorties. Yen noted that the number of Taiwan Strait median line crossings was the
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. Because of these figures—and the effect on Taiwan’s pilots and aircraft—the MND changed its policies. In March 2021, the MND decided that the air force would not scramble aircraft to intercept every single PLA sortie, but instead, it would track those aircraft
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. The age of Taiwan’s aircraft resulted in high maintenance costs, so the practice was not sustainable.
 
Tomboy

Tomboy

Senior Member
Registered Member
GiantPanda said:
While putting the Japanese and their F-15Js in a precarious position, the PLAAF/PLANAF were doing the same to the RoCAF.

Two campaigns that basically wore down two modern 4th gen air fleets powered by F100/110 class with the WS-10.

Whatever the lead on Chinese engines, it's not enough to deter an attrittion campaign that depended directly on the volume of flights and the ability of the opposing engines to keep up.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The increased number of aircraft and greater sophistication had a negative effect on Taiwan’s military. By October 2020, then-Minister of National Defense Yen Teh-fa said that the air force and navy had spent over NT$30 billion, or
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
to intercept and monitor the sorties, including nearly 3,000 Taiwanese sorties. Yen noted that the number of Taiwan Strait median line crossings was the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. Because of these figures—and the effect on Taiwan’s pilots and aircraft—the MND changed its policies. In March 2021, the MND decided that the air force would not scramble aircraft to intercept every single PLA sortie, but instead, it would track those aircraft
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. The age of Taiwan’s aircraft resulted in high maintenance costs, so the practice was not sustainable.
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You do realize PLAAF has much more aircraft so they could just use different aircraft on rotations so on average it gets much less wear. This assumption is a fallency that China wearing Japanese F-15s out its a indication of component life. Also, issue with Japan is that they cannot make critical parts for F-15 and some components are out of production already compared to China which is fully capable of just making more engines and replacement parts.

CJ-1000A will be a good indicator of where Chinese aeroengines are once it enters service. If it is as good as people rumor it is, like more efficient than LEAP-1C with similar reliability and lifespan. We can be pretty sure China has reached parity then
 
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AndrewS

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Registered Member
Tomboy said:
You do realize PLAAF has much more aircraft so they could just use different aircraft on rotations so on average it gets much less wear. This assumption is a fallency that China wearing Japanese F-15s out its a indication of component life. Also, issue with Japan is that they cannot make critical parts for F-15 and some components are out of production already compared to China which is fully capable of just making more engines and replacement parts.

CJ-1000A will be a good indicator of where Chinese aeroengines are once it enters service. If it is as good as people rumor it is, like more efficient than LEAP-1C with similar reliability and lifespan. We can be pretty sure China has reached parity then
Click to expand...

Remember that Japanese F-15s are between 27-44 years old.
I reckon the majority of them should really have been retired already

If they are made to fly even more intensely, that likely means replacing components that were supposed to last the life of the airplane.
 
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Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
AndrewS said:
Remember that Japanese F-15s are between 27-44 years old.
I reckon the majority of them should really have already been retired.

If they are made to fly even more intensely, that likely means replacing components that were supposed to last the life of the airplane.
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They can cut maximum g-load to make them live longer... buying a bunch of new f-15x would be nice but the wait could be long.

F3 will not be there before the mid 30s and they already had problems heat damaging their F-35 while scrambling at full afterburner. No good or cheap solutions. F-15s will still do most of the interceptions.
 
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G

GiantPanda

Junior Member
Registered Member
Tomboy said:
You do realize PLAAF has much more aircraft so they could just use different aircraft on rotations so on average it gets much less wear. This assumption is a fallency that China wearing Japanese F-15s out its a indication of component life. Also, issue with Japan is that they cannot make critical parts for F-15 and some components are out of production already compared to China which is fully capable of just making more engines and replacement parts.

CJ-1000A will be a good indicator of where Chinese aeroengines are once it enters service. If it is as good as people rumor it is, like more efficient than LEAP-1C with similar reliability and lifespan. We can be pretty sure China has reached parity then
Click to expand...

Japan ~100 F-2 and ~200 F-15
ROC ~ 150 F-16 and 60 M2K

That's over 500 4th gens powered mainly by F100/110.

There were around 200 J-16s and another 200 J-11B/S when the campaigns began in around the mid-2010s.

If the TBO of the WS-10 were greatly behind the F-100/110, China would be wearing its own 4th gen planes out. China engines might be behind but not by the stupidity pushed by idiots that the WS-10 TBO is just a few hundred hours compared to the Western jets of 2000 to 4000. The difference is much closer in order for China to even try the attrition campaigns.

And against not one but both Japan and RoC.
 
Tomboy

Tomboy

Senior Member
Registered Member
GiantPanda said:
Japan ~100 F-2 and ~200 F-15
ROC ~ 150 and 60 M2K

That's over 500 4th gens powered mainly by F100/110.

There were around 200 J-16s and another 200 J-11B/S when the campaigns began in around the mid-2010s.

If the TBO of the WS-10 were greatly behind the F-100/110, China would be wearing its own 4th gen planes out. China engines might be behind but not by the stupidity pushed by idiots that the WS-10 TBO is just a few hundred hours compared to the Western jets of 2000 to 4000. The difference is much closer in order for China to even try the attrition campaigns.
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Soviets flew similar campaign during the height of the cold war despite also having terrible service lives on their engine compared to contemporary western ones. Again, literally nothing is preventing PLAAF from just getting more engines. We don't know how many engines were replaced or ordered in that time or knew anything about maintenance schedules and times per aircraft to say definitively WS-10 in that time must be nearly as good.

Also what are you talking about 200 J-16s in mid 2010s? J-16 was introduced in the mid late 2010s. You also forgot China has hundreds more of AL-31 powered flankers and J-10s at the time plus the fact that early J-11Bs were also powered by AL-31s. Domestic engines really only started appearing much more often from late 2010s and early 2020s.
 
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GiantPanda

Junior Member
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Check the RoC Ministry of Defense on the China sorties. Chinese packages always include J-16 which were always WS-10 engined.

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The campaigns coincided exactly with the large scale production of the J-11B and the arrival of the J-16 in 2015.

Again, China would be stupid to run an attrition campaign with markedly less reliable engines.

As far as the USSR, I don't know of any NATO country being put in jeopardy from overwhelming intercepts like Japan and RoC. Also, the height of USSR air power came when everyone used turbojets that had to be replaced frequently:

The air forces of the 27 European members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) combined flew fewer than half the intercepts last year than Japan did.
...
Across the Atlantic, US and Canadian fighters under command of NORAD, the North American Aerospace Defense Command, has averaged just seven
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since 2007, said Capt. Cameron Hillier, a spokesperson for NORAD and the US Northern Command in Colorado. Some years, US and Canadian fighter jets haven’t had to scramble at all.

Japan has seen no such respite. Using the same 2007 time frame as NORAD, even in its slowest year, 2009, Japan scrambled its fighter jets more than 200 times.
 
Tomboy

Tomboy

Senior Member
Registered Member
GiantPanda said:
Check the RoC Ministry of Defense on the China sorties. Chinese packages always include J-16 which were always WS-10 engined.

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Click to expand...
If you bothered checking dates you'll find most of the intercepts in the mid 2010s always were some kind of J-11BS or Su-30MKK mostly AL-31 engined. J-16 started appearing more recently only in the 2020s. Even if what you said is true without knowing maintenance details per sortie it is difficult to draw a hard correlation between engine life and sorties flew. If the leadership sees these intercept as nessasary and part of national defense they will do it even if it is not economical anyways.
 
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