Chinese Engine Development

GiantPanda · 2025-06-12T16:38:31-0400

I agree that engine development in today's China is way different than that during the WS-15 development cycle (which was different from that of the WS-10.)

The experience and industrial built up since then has been monumental.

That said, this is the first Chinese commercial turbofan which comes with a whole world of processes, standards and, indeed, regulations and certifications that need to be experienced and put under the belt.

Whatever was gained from the industrial end will be more than balanced by the new entry into the commercial space. We will probably see first flight in the next five years because it is already on the FTB but unlikely production and service until well into 2030s.

The WS-20 was on FTB in 2013 and mass production started last year in 2024 (Y-20B LRIP maybe a year or 2 before that.)

sunnymaxi · 2025-06-12T16:39:49-0400

tphuang said:
I wouldn't think about it that way. I think engines are just hard and they take time.

And running over time and budget it not uncommon. So, if you want to use WS-15 as an example, then maybe don't expect CJ-1000A to be ready by 2027. Maybe it will take another 2 to 3 years after that for your first major world class civilian aeroengine project.

Always better to keep your expectations more realistic.

You guys think this is bad now, then you were certainly not around here when the J-11B/WS-10 debacle stopped J-11B deliveries. That took years for to fully resolve.

sir if you read my last massage on J-20 thread, pretty much the same explanation i have given regarding WS-15 engine development cycle.. engine design has freeze in 2023.. it is just the enormous demand of Engines required to support J-20 production that WS-15 unable to fulfil right now. the technical bar is too high with WS-15 Engines.

CJ-1000A indeed can take more time due to the Nature of project. being the first world class civilian turbofan. building a prototype is just the tip of iceberg. testing and evaluation take years and years. then scale up production also take years..

the reason behind meltdown regarding WS-15 is, this project is running for almost two decades.. WS-19 is a younger project.

ENTED64 · 2025-06-12T16:48:23-0400

tphuang said:
Btw, there are other projects out there. I'm still waiting to see WS-19. I'm curious why so much upset over WS-10C on J-20, but no similar meltdown over J-35A using WS-21? I'm truly puzzled.

Honestly I am more concerned about WS-19 than WS-15, but that's mostly because I'm not really concerned about WS-15 at all. I haven't heard anything about WS-19 in quite a while and I've been wondering what the plan is given J-35(A) seems to be moving forward at a pretty fast pace.

latenlazy · 2025-06-12T16:50:06-0400

tphuang said:
there are in fact many reasons to be optimistic about future projects, but the context of this is we had a meltdown on J-20 thread over the fact WS-15 is not really for the initial J-20A.

Oh haha. Just got caught up.

WRT to the panic attack in the J-20 thread, people shouldn’t blow their load over initial production teething issues. This is quite normal for ambitious projects. This sort of thing isn’t likely to drag out like the initial WS-10 production issues either. Completely different technical support base compared to a decade ago. You can all dunk on me if I’m wrong but pretty sure this sort of thing is just your normal new product scaling hiccup and will pass pretty quickly.

sunnymaxi · 2025-06-12T16:50:11-0400

GiantPanda said:
I agree that engine development in today's China is way different than that during the WS-15 development cycle (which was different from that of the WS-10.)

The experience and industrial built up since then has been monumental.

That said, this is the first Chinese commercial turbofan which comes with a whole world of processes, standards and, indeed, regulations and certifications that need to be experienced and put under the belt.

Whatever was gained from the industrial end will be more than balanced by the new entry into the commercial space. We will probably see first flight in the next five years because it is already on the FTB but unlikely production and service until well into 2030s.

The WS-20 was on FTB in 2013 and mass production started last year in 2024 (Y-20B LRIP maybe a year or 2 before that.)

agreed with your overall assessment. but cannot compare WS-20 timeline with CJ-1000 because AECC has completely different technical support base compared to a decade ago.

CJ-1000A will soon take first flight on C919 as per the AECC officials.

CJ-1000A exceed all the parameters during evaluation and testing. and soon Engine will be mounted on C919 wings for final test.

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latenlazy · 2025-06-12T16:52:08-0400

ENTED64 said:
Honestly I am more concerned about WS-19 than WS-15, but that's mostly because I'm not really concerned about WS-15 at all. I haven't heard anything about WS-19 in quite a while and I've been wondering what the plan is given J-35(A) seems to be moving forward at a pretty fast pace.

They will use the same supply chains. WS-19 is less likely to have teething issues if the WS-15 experiences them first.

ENTED64 · 2025-06-12T16:56:02-0400

latenlazy said:
Oh haha. Just got caught up.

WRT to the panic attack in the J-20 thread, people shouldn’t blow their load over initial production teething issues. This is quite normal for ambitious projects. This sort of thing isn’t likely to drag out like the initial WS-10 production process either. Completely different technical support base compared to a decade ago. You can all dunk on me if I’m wrong but pretty sure this sort of thing is just your normal new product scaling hiccup.

If you read the J-20 thread you'll see we don't actually have any evidence that the issues are technical in nature. and we shouldn't assume there are design flaws without evidence:

ZeEa5KPul said:
I would recommend that people here read the recent posts by I_H8_Y8s on Reddit to get an understanding of where the Chinese aerospace industry is today. In short, China's technical capability has reached the global leading edge; what's missing is scale. The capacity to produce these advanced engines in numbers that match or exceed the US isn't there yet. This is being worked on.

There is no indication that there's a problem with the WS-15 or that it's been delayed and we shouldn't assume there are design flaws until we get some evidence. What we're seeing now is a consequence of the airframe already being in FRP and the engine just having entered LRIP essentially yesterday. There just aren't enough powerplants to equip the airframes coming off the production line.

Given this reality, the PLAAF has the following options:

Delay entry of the J-20A until the WS-15 is ready in sufficient numbers.

Have some J-20As use WS-10Cs and others use the available WS-15s.

Make the first batch of J-20A entirely with WS-10C until production of the WS-15 is high enough.

1 is out of the question. Every indication we have - and this is clear in the Y8s posts - that the PLAAF wants as many 5th generation fighters as it can get its hands on. This is why the PLAAF has started acquiring J-35As. There is no conceivable scenario in which the PLAAF will turn down the improvements offered by the J-20A because the ideal engine isn't ready in large enough numbers.

The difference between 2 and 3 comes down to production efficiency and logistics. Mixing batches like this will introduce frictions and might lower overall production numbers, once again something the PLAAF won't tolerate. In any case, the rumor we have is consistent with both scenarios, but 3 is more likely because the PLAAF's priority is growing its 5th gen fleet as fast as possible, which means minimizing complications.

So this is less of a WS-15 has technical issues or isn't ready or whatever and more PLAAF just wants as many 5th gen fighters as possible ASAP and WS-15 cannot yet accommodate the volume necessary. As WS-15 production ramps up eventually it will take over.

latenlazy said:
They will use the same supply chains. WS-19 is less likely to have teething issues if the WS-15 experiences them first.

Yeah it's more that I just haven't heard anything about WS-19 progress in a while. Anybody have an update on what's been going on with WS-19?

latenlazy · 2025-06-12T16:59:47-0400

ENTED64 said:
If you read the J-20 thread you'll see we don't actually have any evidence that the issues are technical in nature. and we shouldn't assume there are design flaws without evidence:

Production scaling problems are technical problems. If the jet gets grounded that means there were production quality issues in components that weren’t discovered until after the planes flew. If it’s a production supply issue that means the suppliers haven’t been able to meet expected quota in their production process or haven’t been able to pass quality standards.

ENTED64 · 2025-06-12T17:06:03-0400

latenlazy said:
Production scaling problems are technical problems. If the jet gets grounded that means there were production quality issues in components that weren’t discovered until after the planes flew. If it’s a production supply issue that means the suppliers haven’t been able to meet expected quota or haven’t been able to pass quality standards.

I'm not sure I would classify production scaling problems as technical problems but that's mostly a matter of semantics. The point is there isn't anything wrong with the engine design or the physical engines produced. I wouldn't say that suppliers not being able to scale up as fast as projected is a technical issue. Anyway I at least feel a lot more comfortable with just supply chain delays from scaling up than if the engine design has problems or something. One might lead to a long indefinite delay, the other can reasonably be steadily resolved without issues. As for the jet being grounded I don't think we have any evidence this is the case yet. If we do see the jet being grounded then yes that would be a lot more alarming.

sunnymaxi · 2025-06-12T17:07:05-0400

ENTED64 said:
If you read the J-20 thread you'll see we don't actually have any evidence that the issues are technical in nature. and we shouldn't assume there are design flaws without evidence:

finally someone hit the right button.. yes we don't have any evidence just because a source from Weibo given a hint, people go crazy. lol

when Liu Daxiang and AECC officially announced, there shouldn't be the any question left regarding WS-15 design..

the design has freeze/finalized in 2023
the design has freeze/finalized in 2023

Right now the only problem is, enormous supply chain of WS-15 can't keep the pace with J-20 production. you need 200+ WS-15 engines with thousands of precise parts if production halted it means some components is not passing quality review and its common in Engine production.. even PW producing 120-150 F-135 engines annually with the support of European allies.. so its not a cakewalk.

the simple thing some people don't understand.

Edit- and no, we don't see any J-20A grounded so far. we have only few units of J-20 with WS-15 engines.. so it doesn't make sense.

Chinese Engine Development

GiantPanda

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sunnymaxi

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ENTED64

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sunnymaxi

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latenlazy

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ENTED64

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latenlazy

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ENTED64

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sunnymaxi

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