Chinese Engine Development

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
If they are still in the requesting final blueprint stage for H-20 that would mean that H-20 is years away from being built not to even mention first flight.

I certainly don't believe that the WS-35 will be used to power the H-20, especially considering the sheer scale of difficulties and challenges facing all the Chinese engineers and technicians involved in the H-20 project.

They don't need any additional uncertainties or risks to pile on, and using mature engines (such as non-AB variant of WS-10) instead of an experimental/still WIP engine would be one way to enable that.

Didn't Cute Orca or was it someone else that said depending on how fast they go we could see it take flight before Zhuhai 2026 at the latest

Yes, Cute Orca is the one saying that sometime prior to Zhuhai Expo 2024.

and potentially the first prototype might already be under construction at XAC?

And that's from the Guancha Trios during one of the most recent Dragonfly FM podcasts highlighted in the H-20 thread (of which nobody seemed to have picked up on).

140tf of total thrust is very high for a high 400t class aircraft, C-5M and An-124 have TWR at MTOW in the 0.25-0.23 range. Both aircraft have excellent short field takeoff capabilities. My bets is that the new transport will have a MTOW in the high 500t range and have similar overall dimension as a A380 to ensure compatibility at major airports.
My money is still 70/30 on this engine being either a WS-15 successor for J-36 and J-XDS or a An-225 class transport. Although tbf I don't really see the point for a transport that large another possibility is that they might use 2 35tf class engines for a inbetween Y-20 and C-5M seems unlikely tho

IMO, China likely won't be needing a An-225-class transporter.

Although, they certainly should aim for something that is either between the C-5 and An-124, or something between the An-124 and the Russian TTS "Elephant" project, as I believe that China does have needs for very large strategic airlifters for purposes that aren't strictly limited to the military.

Besides, whatever China's very large strategic airlifter is gonna be, it is prudent for people to not blindly copy whatever specifications they're reading about the C-5 and An-124 and directly paste them onto said Chinese airlifter itself. Some of the PLAAF's operational requirements for its warplanes (including airlifters) are going to have some drastic contrasts than those of the USAF and RuAF.

For instance:
- Does the USAF and RuAF require their airlifters to be able to operate from runways that are more than 3000 meters above the sea level as much as the PLAAF do?
- If the very large strategic airlifter is able to take off from runways that are 2600-2800 meters long instead of 3000+ meters long, how many more civilian airports and military airbases across China would be open to said airlifter to operate from? And what about runways that are 2400-2500 meters?
- Both the USAF and RuAF see their C-5s and An-124s as platforms for hub-to-hub transportation to rear airbases/airfields which are relatively safer and less exposed to the enemy, whereas the smaller C-137s and Il-76s are the platforms for hub-to-spoke transportation to frontline airbases/airfields which are much riskier and more exposed to the enemy. However, given how warfare has been evolving, such arrangements are steadily losing its ground - Namely, would there ever be enough airbases/airfields in the rear that are safe enough and secure enough from the proliferation of long range theater/strategic (VLO cruise and hypersonic) missiles?

This likely means having a combined engine thrust that is rough equivalent or somewhat smaller to the An-225 to power an airlifter that is roughly the size that is somewhere between C-5 and An-124 or somewhat bigger.

In the meantime, compared to civilian airliners - Military airlifters often have deep-rooted demands for reliability and redundancy, especially during wartime where damages are easy to incur/happen but difficult to remedy/rectify (e.g. suffering single-engine failure during takeoff when the airbase/airfield is under direct enemy threat/fire). This is one of the key reasons most of the mainstream airlifters of considerable sizes today are powered by not 2 but 4 engines, despite having readily-available engines with equivalent or greater thrust, better fuel economy and the reduction of the maintenance and logistic workloads that would enable the adoption of a 2-engine setting compared to a 4-engine setting.
 
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lcloo

Major
Engine development takes longer time than development of airframe and other sub-system. 15-20 years is a normal timeline.

IMO this might be for a new yet to be revealed aircraft, my guess would be a new class of large transport jet.
 

Tomboy

Junior Member
Registered Member
Engine development takes longer time than development of airframe and other sub-system. 15-20 years is a normal timeline.

IMO this might be for a new yet to be revealed aircraft, my guess would be a new class of large transport jet.
imo 15-20 years is a very long time for engine dev and the only reason early Chinese engine used this long to develop would be due to a lack of industrial base and experience. Now with WS-20 and other advanced engines in production and with the new engine seemingly be a derivative of the CJ-2000 which may already have the first prototype built by now. I believe that this new engine if indeed based on CJ-2000 would probably follow a similar timeline being certified by 2028/2029.
Although, they certainly should aim for something that is either between the C-5 and An-124, or something between the An-124 and the Russian TTS "Elephant" project, as I believe that China does have needs for very large strategic airlifters for purposes that aren't strictly limited to the military.

Besides, whatever China's very large strategic airlifter is gonna be, it is prudent for people to not blindly copy whatever specifications they're reading about the C-5 and An-124 and directly paste them onto said Chinese airlifter itself. Some of the PLAAF's operational requirements for its warplanes (including airlifters) are going to have some drastic contrasts than those of the USAF and RuAF.

For instance:
- Does the USAF and RuAF require their airlifters to be able to operate from runways that are more than 3000 meters above the sea level as much as the PLAAF do?
- If the very large strategic airlifter is able to take off from runways that are 2600-2800 meters long instead of 3000+ meters long, how many more civilian airports and military airbases across China would be open to said airlifter to operate from? And what about runways that are 2400-2500 meters?
- Both the USAF and RuAF see their C-5s and An-124s as platforms for hub-to-hub transportation to rear airbases/airfields which are relatively safer and less exposed to the enemy, whereas the smaller C-137s and Il-76s are the platforms for hub-to-spoke transportation to frontline airbases/airfields which are much riskier and more exposed to the enemy. However, given how warfare has been evolving, such arrangements are steadily losing its ground - Namely, would there ever be enough airbases/airfields in the rear that are safe enough and secure enough from the proliferation of long range theater/strategic (VLO cruise and hypersonic) missiles?
I do agree with you on that An-225 is just far too large to be realistically useful. After looking at the the "Slon"transport project, I do have to say that IMO it seems about the right size for a new large strategic transport, 180t max payload would mean it could carry just enough to have up to 4 of PLAGF's next gen MBT with heavy armor package with some extra buffer or 5 ZTQ-15s/Next gen MBT without heavy armor package. It also seem to have a very large payload bay very useful for transporting 18 wheel launch vehicles etc, oversized cargo like large radar vehicles when disassembled. For high alt takeoff performance they might ultlize a slightly uprated CJ-2000 for extra takeoff performance or might incorporate special systems that might boost thrust temporarily for takeoff under certain conditions which also will boost shortfield performance. Nothing IMO that can't be solved with current tech/tech under development already.
 

sunnymaxi

Major
Registered Member
Does Xi'an Aircraft Company also happen to make engines cause I've really only heard of AECC Shenyang and Shanghai or are they requesting the blueprints for integration on the final design of the new aircraft? But nevertheless this new engine appearing at XAC would mean a very high chance that WS-35 would be some sort of high thrust high bypass engine for a new large transport. Also since this shows that the order has been "filled" does that mean the engine is past the design phase and already near the prototype phase?

Edit:Nevermind it seems that XAEC do indeed make fighter engines, so there is still a equal chance that WS-35 might be the next gen VCE engine for J-36 and J-XDS
AECC structure is very complicated.. they have many Engine Design institutes with widespread supply chain across provinces. they just become too big.

XAEC is one of the largest Engine components suppliers in mainland, they also do manufacturer military engines. closely cooperate with AECC Shenyang.. Shenyang further splits into two institutes.

AECC Sichuan/AECC Chengdu dominates in large gas turbine sector alongside Engine parts/components. they are at cutting edge research in gas turbine field.

AECC Shanghai responsible for civilian Engines like ''CJ'' series

AECC Guizhou Liyang responsible for WS-13/WS-21/WS-19 programs

there are further more, like Harbin ,Hunan, Changsha for large Turboshaft/Turboprop Engines..
 

00CuriousObserver

Junior Member
Registered Member
In the meantime, apart from An-225, the only aircraft which I could think of that would be a user of WS-35 would be the militarized version of the C929. However, why didn't China follow the same route and develop the militarized version of the C919 in the first place, when the WS-20 (which is roughly in the same ballpark of 130-140 kN thrust as the CJ1000A) is approaching full readiness in the past few years?

There is some 10-15 year gap between the development of the C919 and the C929. Needless to say, the C929 will incorporate far more domestic technology from the get-go, and as a result, it won’t face the same restrictions with its militarized version as the C919. Simply comparing them based on engine development alone is insufficient
 

BoraTas

Major
Registered Member
Why do that when you can just get the militarized CJ1000A? Plus the jump from 20 to 35 is just too much as a mere "core refresh." Plus, "WS-35" matches with the AEF-3500 engine, so I think it's a militarized CJ-2000.
Could it be this 250 kN engine? 250 kN is the perfect thrust class for a new super heavy lifter. If it is a militarized CJ-2000 it would be quite confusing for me. Four CJ-2000s are enough for an aircraft that is as big as the An-225!

1745103500465.png
 

Nx4eu

Junior Member
Registered Member
Could it be this 250 kN engine? 250 kN is the perfect thrust class for a new super heavy lifter. If it is a militarized CJ-2000 it would be quite confusing for me. Four CJ-2000s are enough for an aircraft that is as big as the An-225!

View attachment 150321
Four 250kN would be a little weak for something the size of the An-225 wouldn't it? It'd be at least slightly larger than a An-124 though.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Could it be this 250 kN engine? 250 kN is the perfect thrust class for a new super heavy lifter. If it is a militarized CJ-2000 it would be quite confusing for me. Four CJ-2000s are enough for an aircraft that is as big as the An-225!

As mentioned previously:
1. China likely won't be needing An-225-size airlifters anytime soon - At least not when the C-5/An-125-class airlifter category is still a blank space for China;
2. The An-225 isn't suited for austere field operations, to begin with; and
3. China's unique requirements for operations from high-altitude airports and airfields means that something with both the sizes and combined thrust of the An-225 isn't as realistic.

Also, how the battlefields of today shapes the requirements for very large strategic airlifters of today is different from how the battlefields of the Cold War shaped the requirements for the C-5 and An-124 back then. We can't just copy-and-paste the whole thing through-and-through.

Four 250kN would be a little weak for something the size of the An-225 wouldn't it? It'd be at least slightly larger than a An-124 though.

If the WS-35 is indeed 250kN-class instead of a military variant of the 350kN-class CJ2000, then it certainly makes more sense for a C-5/An-124-class airlifter.
 
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BoraTas

Major
Registered Member
As mentioned previously:
1. China likely won't be needing An-225-size airlifters anytime soon - At least not when the C-5/An-125-class airlifter category is still a blank space for China;
2. The An-225 isn't suited for austere field operations, to begin with; and
3. China's unique requirements for operations from high-altitude airports and airfields means that something with both the sizes and combined thrust of the An-225 isn't as realistic.

Also, how the battlefields of today shapes the requirements for very large strategic airlifters of today is different from how the battlefields of the Cold War shaped the requirements for the C-5 and An-124 back then. We can't just copy-and-paste the whole thing through-and-through.




If the WS-35 is indeed 250kN-class instead of a military variant of the 350kN-class CJ2000, then it certainly makes more sense for a C-5/An-124-class airlifter.

Most of these are the reasons why I think this WS-35 isn't the CJ-2000. An An-225 type aircraft will never be very suitable for austere fields regardless of its take-off run length. The facilities required for such an aircraft would be very special. And it would be a massive massive luxury spending for China of this decade. There are more pressing transport aircraft needs to cover. (Y-9 successor, maybe a stretched Y-20, C-5/An-124 class lifter, maybe lighter lifters too...)
Also, the CJ-2000 and C929 themselves are in early stages of their development so there are no reasons why they would be launching projects to militarize them already.

If I had to vote, I would say the WS-35 is a ~250 kN engine for a C-5/An-124 class lifter.

Clarification: By "super heavy" I mean something around 400 tonnes like the An-124-100M. Because the 180-300 tonne band is already called heavy. The An-225 would be "ultra heavy" in my book. There is no formal terminology for such aircraft because literally a single aircraft of that specification was built.
 
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by78

General
Nice images of the WJ-6 turboprop.

54462694867_6827f29c13_k.jpg
54462694897_ddde269e15_k.jpg
 
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