Chinese Engine Development

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
ok, i can believe that, but obviously, chinese su-27s and j-10s dont have the varient that can give such thrust. i think china will stich to its al-31s for its su-27s and j-10s, but will fit the ws-10a on the j-11 and future j-10s.
the new chinese attach plane based on su-34 may feature an al-31 or ws-10a. j-xx almost will definilt have the al-41.
 

tphuang

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it would make no sense for China to invest in AL-41 if it doesn't intend to use it on J-xx. Yeah, a twin-engined indigenous attacker would be great.
 

MIGleader

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i was hopnig the buy the su-32, but its not clear if russia will sell it, or even if they do, can they make enogh. but it offers a quik solution.
 

dodler

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some Fat to chew

There seems to be some confusion with engine desiginations on J-10. it is equipped with the AL-31FN and differs from standard AL-31F in that its electrical wiring and auxilary drives are mounted below the engine- the N part of designation standing for Nizhnyaya Korobka (lower [auxilary gear] box) as requested by PRC to fit in J-10.

As this is a significant engeneering difference even the ability to interchange with other Al-31 types is restricted. there does seem an over optimism on the ability to change engine types with realtive ease and speed. To be honest I have doubts about the WS-10A being in service in any near foreseeble time (5-10years) . And these fanatasies about mixing a bit of a russian engine with an american engine are a bit far fetched, its just not that easy!!!
Remember the experience of the Brits in re-engineering the Pahntom with the Spey, it produced a heaviver , slower, less fuel effecient aircraft. It just not as simple as ripping out one engine and sticking in another.
I agree with the view that the J-10 will continue to use the AL-31FN. As to China aqurring the Al-41 series this seems a little premature and overly optimistic.
Thanks for great articles on RD engines in Mig -29 adaptelius(?).
Another point that will most probably bring cries of outrage. Everyone is critisiing the Spey for being underpoewred in the JH-7 series.
Prehaps the critisim should also be applied in reverse, it is the JH-7 which is overwieght???
Please note this is meant to be a "Constructive critisimn" as I personally think the JH-7 series are a significant development in PLAAF capabilities.
 

tphuang

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Re: some Fat to chew

dodler said:
There seems to be some confusion with engine desiginations on J-10. it is equipped with the AL-31FN and differs from standard AL-31F in that its electrical wiring and auxilary drives are mounted below the engine- the N part of designation standing for Nizhnyaya Korobka (lower [auxilary gear] box) as requested by PRC to fit in J-10.

As this is a significant engeneering difference even the ability to interchange with other Al-31 types is restricted. there does seem an over optimism on the ability to change engine types with realtive ease and speed. To be honest I have doubts about the WS-10A being in service in any near foreseeble time (5-10years) . And these fanatasies about mixing a bit of a russian engine with an american engine are a bit far fetched, its just not that easy!!!
Remember the experience of the Brits in re-engineering the Pahntom with the Spey, it produced a heaviver , slower, less fuel effecient aircraft. It just not as simple as ripping out one engine and sticking in another.
I agree with the view that the J-10 will continue to use the AL-31FN. As to China aqurring the Al-41 series this seems a little premature and overly optimistic.
Thanks for great articles on RD engines in Mig -29 adaptelius(?).
Another point that will most probably bring cries of outrage. Everyone is critisiing the Spey for being underpoewred in the JH-7 series.
Prehaps the critisim should also be applied in reverse, it is the JH-7 which is overwieght???
Please note this is meant to be a "Constructive critisimn" as I personally think the JH-7 series are a significant development in PLAAF capabilities.

welcome to sdf, it's JH-7A that we are talking about now, JH-7's specs aren't that impressive at all. As for WS-10A, please read up on the previously posted links to get a feel of where it is in development.
 

dodler

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JH-7 `series', ie JH-7, jh-7A, JH-7B, JH-7`whateveruwant'.
Have read all the the threads, which led me to my conclusion . there is nothing of any real signifance or quality to add to information.
I would like to be wrong and see a WS-10A/ J-11 in production, but unfortunatly facts and reality impinge upon my desires.
 

tphuang

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dodler said:
JH-7 `series', ie JH-7, jh-7A, JH-7B, JH-7`whateveruwant'.
Have read all the the threads, which led me to my conclusion . there is nothing of any real signifance or quality to add to information.
I would like to be wrong and see a WS-10A/ J-11 in production, but unfortunatly facts and reality impinge upon my desires.
J-11B hinges on the success of WS-10A, if WS-10A doesn't start production soon, J-11B is stuck.
 

tphuang

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a little more on the overall progress of Chinese engines
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WS10A发动机研制成功,歼十马上就用中国心

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加入时间:2005-8-11 16:37:22

 

  近期,从官方公开报道看,我国涡轮风扇航空发动机研制真是捷报频传,一路高歌。大有全面开花,重点突破之势。现将公开报道的主要消息摘录如下:
  1.中国“泰山â€新型战机用涡扇发动机已完成设计。
  据航空报透露:2005年4月中旬,中国一航贵州发动机研究所全面完成新型涡扇发动机整机零部件设计图纸质量复查工作。至此,发动机零部件图纸设计和技术文件编制工作全面完成。
  报道指出,新型涡扇发动机是为我军现役歼击机动力装置升级换代研制的发动机。名称为“泰山â€。目前,一航贵州发动机所工程设计人员正在黎阳公司、西航公司、黎明公司现场配合发动机试制工艺准备和生产准备工作,配合加工试制零部件。
  从以上报道分析,该型发动机很有可能是为J7和J8系列战机升级换代的涡扇发动机。

  2.中国某新型涡扇发动机两大组件试制成功。
  据中国航空报报道,2005年 4月6日上午9时30分,黎阳公司涡扇新机核心机零组件试制工作取得重要进展,黎阳公司按期完成了火焰筒和燃油总管两大组件的试制工作。
  该机是为我国未来轻型多用途战斗机研制提供可供选择的动力装置。研制以黎阳公司为总装集成单位。。。。通过样机和资料引进、试验验证、消化吸收、工程研制等技术途径,掌握有关的设计制造技术。
  黎阳公司总经理张大荣说,两大组件的交付,象征着该新机研制进入了一个新的阶段。
  从以上报道分析,该型发动机很有可能是引进俄罗斯RD93涡扇发动机技术,为“枭龙â€战机配套研制的发动机。

  3.我国新一代航空发动机核心机点火一次成功。
  据中国航空报报道,2005年4月14日17时38分,在中国燃气涡轮研究院地面试车台上,我国自行研制的首台高推重比涡扇发动机核心机,检查性点火试验一次成功,并顺利推到慢车状态!
  涡轮院领导即兴讲话表示祝贺--为了这一天,他们整整盼了15年!
  该核心机点火一次成功,表明其主要技术指标、技术状态良好。有关人士认为,这展示了我国具有自主研制先进航空发动机的实力,坚定了国家、军方和业界对新一代航空发动机核心机最终发展成为型号产品的信心。
  根据以上报道分析,应该是推重比10一级的中等推力的新一代涡扇发动机核心机。

  4.中国自主研制成功WS500小型涡扇发动机。
  据报道,在2004年11月举办的第五届中国国际航空航天博览会上,中国一航展区的一台小型航空发动机引起了专家和观众的兴趣和关注。这是中国一航自主研制的涡扇500发动机。该发动机为首台国内自主设计的小推力级涡扇发动机,它的研制将填补我国航空发动机核心机系列中小推力领域的空白,可作为无人机或小型飞机动力。
  涡扇500发动机项目于2003年6月18日正式启动,2004年10月完成总装,历时仅16个月,这在中国航空发展史上是没有先例的。这是中国一航科技实力、研制水平的又 一次集中体现。

  5.中国军用发动机重点型号启动试车工作。
  据航空报报道:2005年入春以来,六○六所生产形势高歌猛进,重点型号研制取得节节胜利。日前,昆仑某型发动机飞行前考核持久试车胜利完成,成功实现首飞。另一个重点型号各战区捷报频传,发动机设计定型持久试车已经启动。
  2005年 5月11日,某重点型号发动机设计定型持久试车在六○六所试车台正式启动。

  6. 让我们再回顾一下以往关于航空发动机的公开报道:
  ---2002年3月株洲生产出了我国第一台小推力涡扇发动机。
  ---2002年5月沈阳历时18年按国军标研制出了中推力的“昆仑â€涡喷发动机。不久又研制出其改进型“昆仑â€-2型发动机。据悉,这款发动机是涡喷发动机的巅峰之作,在世界航空史上占有重要的地位。它将为J7、J8系列战机提供强劲的动力。同时,它的若干先进研究成果将为今后研制大推力涡扇发动机积累了宝贵的经验。
  ---2003年 7 月西安研制出了“秦岭â€中等推力的加力式涡扇发动机。据悉,它是英国斯贝涡扇发动机的国产改进型。 为“飞豹â€歼击轰炸机提供了强有力的“心脏â€。
  ---另有公开报道,2003年我国实现了对进口第三代发动机的维修达标,当年实现经济效益。所谓“进口第三代发动机â€就是AL31F俄制发动机。 

  综合分析以上报道,可得知我国几个地区的发动机研究和制造基地当前的主要任务:
  ---株洲 小推力涡扇 为无人机或小型飞机配套
  ---四川 小推力涡扇 为无人机或小型飞机配套
  ---西安 中推力涡扇 为“飞豹â€配套
  ---四川 中推力涡扇 为“枭龙â€配套
  ---贵州 中推力涡扇 为J7和J8升级换代配套
  ---沈阳 “昆仑â€涡喷 为J7和J8配套
  ---四川 高推重比涡扇 为未来四代战机配套
  近期,中国航空报相继大篇幅报道了我国几大航空设计和制造基地优秀共产党员在研发新型重点型号战机中的可歌可泣的事迹。从字里行间可明显推断:
  ---沈阳 已于2004年7月实现了采用国产新型涡扇发动机的J11改型机首飞。
  ---成都 已于2003年底实现J10的设计定型,2004年进入批量生产。
  众所周知,J11(SU27)和我国引进的SU30MKK系列战机采用的是两台俄罗斯制AL31F型发动机;JI10采用的是一台AL31F小改型 AL31FN型发动机。据悉,加力推力为125。5千牛,推重比在8左右。系大推力加力涡扇发动机。我国是一个大国,作为空军中坚的J10、J11和 SU30MKK长期依赖进口发动机是不可想象的,也是十分危险的。那么,由谁来承担为J10和J11解决国产“心脏â€这一重任呢?
  笔者认为:就是沈阳的606所和黎明公司。是他们在研制与俄罗斯制AL31F同级的航空发动机,名称可能为WS10A。其性能可能优于AL31F。其理由是:
  1.606所和黎明公司技术力量雄厚。曾研制过WS6 大推力发动机。曾历时18年按国军标研制成功具有完全自主知识产权的先进的“昆仑â€涡喷发动机。其间,攻克的几十项重大关键技术:如定向凝固无余量精铸复合冷却空心涡轮叶片技术,新材料技术,宝贵的研制经验、实验设施等将为WS10A的研制提供极其有利的条件。
  2.从公开报道看,606所是国内唯一进行大推力涡扇发动机的研制单位。
  据报道,2002年6月16日胡锦涛主席到606所视察,型号总师张恩和汇报说:“这是我国自行研制的大推力级加力涡轮风扇发动机,是国家高新工程项目的重点型号,该项目已取得重大阶段性成果,有望在不远的将来实现设计定型并装备部队使用,使军用飞机的性能有更大的飞跃â€。从我国的紧迫需要分析,上述大推力涡扇发动机就是WS10A。
  3.我国有几大发动机研发基地,主要的两个分别是沈阳和四川。从上面列出的各基地研制任务看,四川重点进行第4代高推重比发动机的研制;沈阳则在进行急迫的WS10A研制,这才是合乎逻辑的。

  那么,WS10A的研制进度如何呢?还是让我们从公开的报道来了解:
  1 。2003年1月出版的《解放军报》有一篇题为“中国空军‘三代战机’试飞纪实â€的报道,透露了中国新型涡轮风扇发动机于2002年6月试飞成功的消息,引起各方高度重视。文章称,在国产新型战机上的试飞,在我国尚属首次,不仅技术难度大,而且每个课目的风险也大。试飞那天,该试飞员的“坐骑â€被人为安装了两个不匹配的发动机,一台是进口的、一台是国产的。……国产新型发动机的研制成功,不仅填补了我国发动机研制的空白,更为重要的是标志着中国的航空工业步入了世界发达国家的行列。
  国内外众多媒体普遍认为,该发动机就是WS10A,“三代机â€就是J11。笔者认为是很有道理的。不然,有什么发动机可以“标志着中国航空工业步入了世界发达国家的行列â€呢?另外,与胡锦涛主席同年6月16日视察606所见到的“已取得重大阶段性成果的大推力加力涡扇发动机â€也有着某些必然的联系。单单从时间上来讲,也完全合乎逻辑。

  2.2003年有来自航空系统的消息:“从3月25~27日召开的中航一集团燃气轮机工作会议上了解到,今年中航一集团发动机行业的工作重点是以涡扇10发动机定型试飞为主线,抓好重点型号研制……â€.

  3.据航空报报道:2004年 9月10日,黎明航空发动机(集团)有限责任公司、六○六所某重点型号批生产大干动员会在黎明公司召开。
  中航一集团把某重点型号确立为重中之重的任务。该项重点型号批生产对黎明公司和六○六所而言,是一次历史性的商机和严峻的挑战。为此,厂所把此项任务当作压倒一切的任务来抓,要求相关单位,提高认识,用实际行动向国家做出承诺,务求优质、高效、全面按期完成任务。
  在大干动员会上,黎明公司提出将采取重奖重罚措施,坚决贯彻“不交任务就交乌纱帽â€,“以成败论英雄â€的原则â€。。。。
  李勇表示,我们要勇敢地担负起这项光荣而艰巨的政治任务和历史使命,不辜负上级领导和用户的信任和希望,抓住机遇,迎接挑战,打胜这一攻坚仗。
  姜伟强调,我们必须认清形势,抓住机遇,迎接挑战,在人才调配、制造技术提升、强化生产和质量管理等方面精心组织、狠抓落实。抓好各个关键项目的工艺攻关,减少质量损失,提高产品合格率。军无戏言、军令如山、军法无情。姜伟号召黎明公司全体干部职工与六○六所、驻厂军代表一道,齐心协力,为完成某重点型号批生产任务而努力拼搏。
  “中航一集团重中之重的任务â€,“历史性的商机和严峻的挑战â€,“不交任务就交乌纱帽â€,“军无戏言、军令如山、军法无情â€这些“重话â€在两位领导的口中都说出了,可见“某重点型号â€批生产是何等重要!试想,除了WS10A还会有谁呢?
  4.2005年 5月11日,某重点型号发动机设计定型持久试车在六○六所试车台正式启动。中国一航副总经理林左鸣对全体参试人员提出要求:“重点型号牵动着全行业的心,牵动着上级机关乃至中央领导的心,他们都期盼着我们取得成功为国防工业做出新的贡献â€。
  笔者窃以为,目前能“牵动中央领导的心â€的重点型号发动机非WS10A莫属!试想,J10和J11系列战机生产年需发动机近百台,靠进口多花外汇且不讲,一旦外国卡脖子如何是好?中央领导能不“忧心â€?中航领导能不“焦心â€---以至发出“恨话â€?
  5.从黎明公司的QC70、QC168、QC260燃气轮机成功开发报道看,均称以国产某A型机为基础,据分析应是WS10A。这从侧面印证了WS10A核心机早已成熟。

  结语

  航空发动机被称为机械工业之花。是高技术的集成,是公认的战略产业。目前世界上能制造核武器的国家有十余个,但能独立研制航空发动机的国家只有美、英、俄、法、中,可见其技术难度之大。中国是一个发展中国家,家底薄,经济技术落后,要想做一件与发达国家同样的大事,要付出何等的艰辛!在这个世界上,有谁会真心实意地帮你实现国防现代化!经过80年代的准备,90年代的苦干,本世纪初尤其近5年的拼搏,中国的航空发动机工业终于厚积薄发,全线突破。可以预见:我们魂绕梦牵的WS10A在2005年年底前很有可能完成设计定型,最迟不会超过2006年。届时,我们的三代战机将安装上自己的“心脏â€,翱翔在祖国的万里蓝&22825;。到那时,我们才能够自豪地说:“研制三代机毕业了â€。
 

MIGleader

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tphuang said:
J-11B hinges on the success of WS-10A, if WS-10A doesn't start production soon, J-11B is stuck.

the ws-10a has completed development., it set to begin production in 06.
thats part of thew reason why j-11 construction has been suspended.
they also want a new radar on it.
 

tphuang

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MIGleader said:
the ws-10a has completed development., it set to begin production in 06.
thats part of thew reason why j-11 construction has been suspended.
they also want a new radar on it.
well, I guess you can still build other parts of the plane and put the engine in there near the end. The question is what kind of distribution are we going to get with WS-10A?
I'm guessing 30 for J-11B and remaining to J-10, since SAC only has the capacity to produce about 15 J-11s per year.
 
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