Chinese Engine Development

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Remarkable, isn't it? One user idly muses about the current value of a design parameter based on what it supposedly was in a two-decade old spec sheet, and suddenly China surely needs the Su-35 for its engines. A warp drive couldn't keep up these leaps in logic.

Yes if I wanted to be superficial I can look at Japan's TVC and laugh at how cheap it looked. Who knows... it might work good enough. It's just like those that charged how the J-20's side weapons bay worked wasn't impressive compared to on the F-22. Yeah the F-22's is more sophisticated but that doesn't mean it working like a Rube Goldberg device makes it better.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
It seems that even with the WS-15, china will continue to be considerably behind the US europe and russia regarding aircraft engines. But thats not unsurprising. They are starting from far behind. That is probably the reason that china bought the su-35. To get more engine tech.

I wouldn't agree of "considerably behind" ... but yes even with WS-15 China would be still behind the US, British, France and somewhat Russia ... no other countries outside the big four is even close to China
 

Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
The Japanese TVC system IS a bit strange... exposed actuators, hinges and linkages but serrated edges for low RCS? I can see why they didn't bother with a AVEN/PYBBN type for a sub-scale tech demonstrator (paddles will do fine as a quick & dirty proof of concept for testing FCS integration), but why pretend there is anything stealthy whatsoever about them? Sure enough, the designs for the full size engine which have been published feature either LO axisymmetrical or even 2D rectangular nozzles.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Pretty much the only direct reference to Izd. 30 HPC pressure ratio to date is a recent disclosure by Salyut in connection with the engine's first flight. This stated 6.7 (so in my range of estimation, albeit at the lower end) but there are a couple of reasons to believe the figure might not necessarily reflect the final product.

Firstly, it's generally understood that the HPC is Saturn's responsibility (as is overall project leadership), secondly the mass flow specs quoted along with the pressure ratio don't match the range expected for the full size engine. Depending on whether you take them as referring to actual or corrected flow they indicate a sub-scale demonstrator or an AL-31FM2/3-class engine, either of which (in combination with the source being Salyut) would suggest they may rather apply to Salyut's losing bid in the initial competition for overall leadership of the project.

As for WS-15, 7.1 in a 6-stage HPC would be ok (it's worth mentioning in this context that if Salyut's quote refers to their AL-31FM2/3 compressor it would represent 6.7 from six stages) but still a bit lack-lustre. Even accounting for the fact that average stage pressure ratio drops slightly as you add stages to a given design it works out to a lower figure than the EJ200 (which in turn would be beaten by Izd. 30, even if we assume 6.7 is correct for that engine instead as it would then be done in only 5 stages). I suppose this would mirror the situation seen with the CJ-1000A and PD-14 quite nicely though.
The 7.1 figure came out a few years back. If they did indeed bump it up from 6, they might not be done with increases in the compression ratio. Though I do wonder, even if they could, whether they would need a 6-stage compression ratio approaching 8 in the HPC. If they could get that far they might have to consider dropping a stage, but then you’re getting a different engine entirely.
 

Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yes, with a stage pressure ratio that high (and still able to satisfy surge margin requirements for throttle transients and flow distortion at high AoA or side slip) you'd probably be inclined to drop a stage and reap a weight & rotor inertia reduction. Compressor exit temperature places a limit on OPR for a given level of materials technology (so really there's a durability incentive too), especially in fighter engines where at supersonic speed the air will enter the engine already heated quite a bit above ambient by compression from the intake shock system.

Late model F110s and F100s have HPC pressure ratios beyond 8:1 (for an OPR of ~30), but then their LPC/fan pressure ratios are substantially lower than in the EJ200 and F119. While such a high OPR gave them good fuel consumption in subsonic flight, I'm not sure how long they could tolerate supersonic speeds without eating into TBO given the materials technology of the day (supercruise!).
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
I wouldn't agree of "considerably behind" ... but yes even with WS-15 China would be still behind the US, British, France and somewhat Russia ... no other countries outside the big four is even close to China
What? What has Britain and France made that could compare with WS-15, or even WS-10X? Or are you talking about overall engine tech including civilian?
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
What? What has Britain and France made that could compare with WS-15, or even WS-10X? Or are you talking about overall engine tech including civilian?

Uhhh...Britain, through EADS, has partial ownership of the EJ200. Technologically speaking the EJ200 is definitely more advanced than the WS-10X, and at least from what we know so far it may even be a bit more advanced than the WS-15
 

B.I.B.

Captain
Yes if I wanted to be superficial I can look at Japan's TVC and laugh at how cheap it looked. Who knows... it might work good enough. It's just like those that charged how the J-20's side weapons bay worked wasn't impressive compared to on the F-22. Yeah the F-22's is more sophisticated but that doesn't mean it working like a Rube Goldberg device makes it better.

How many millions did Nasa spend designing a biro that worked in space while the Russians opted for the simple pencil?
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Uhhh...Britain, through EADS, has partial ownership of the EJ200. Technologically speaking the EJ200 is definitely more advanced than the WS-10X, and at least from what we know so far it may even be a bit more advanced than the WS-15
I realize that, and France has Snecma. You're saying that EJ200 is more advanced cus it has a >9 TWR? OK, that's a point but it's a 90kN engine and WS-10X can produce over 130kN depending on variant, possibly over 140kN on the latest variants so I wouldn't trade an EJ200 for a WS-10.... B. Neither France nor Britain has produced a fighter engine with over 100kN from what I remember.
 
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