Chinese Engine Development

gullible

Junior Member
did anyone remember the 1st flight of j-20 in 2011 that there was no visible flame from the engines when it took off?
if so could u guys pls explain that strange phenomenon?

人民网对于收费没看到发动机火焰的解读-
国防部回应“歼20”试飞 专家看视频称发动机有创新
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人民网北京1月12日电 (记者 李杨洋) 据媒体报道,中国国防部外事办公室副主任关友飞11日晚在回答有关“歼-20”战斗机试飞问题时表示,中国发展武器装备不针对任何国家和特定目标。从时间上看,没有任何针对性,是正常的工作安排。国防部在间接证实“歼-20”试飞这一消息之前,网上已经有大量关于“歼-20首飞”的图片和视频在流传。据了解,视频同之前关于“歼-20”的照片一样,是一些军事爱好者在距离很远的地方自行拍摄的。

  流传的视频显示了“歼-20”的起飞过程,国内资深军事分析家陈光文在看完视频后对人民网记者说,起飞时并没有看到发动机尾部的喷火,这可能显示中国“歼-20”的红外隐身别有特色。

  他进一步解释说,就是在发动机尾喷流射出前就采取了红外冷却装置。据了解F-22同样使用了先进的红外隐身技术,通过喷流冷却矩形喷口,垂尾、平尾、尾撑向后延伸,可遮蔽发动机喷口的红外线辐射。在炽热喷流飞出尾喷口前就得到了降温,因而红外特征显著降低。此前,对于网络流传“歼-20”战机的发动机配置,很多国内外媒体都分析称“歼-20”在这一方面可能欠缺。陈光文称,“现在来看似乎是创新。可能会使用改进后的国产‘太行’发动机”。


  据新华网消息,在歼-20成功完成首飞落地后,试飞现场内外欢呼声一片,机场外的围观群众也接连放起鞭炮。据在现场实地观察的网友转述,歼-20进行首飞时,编号220的歼-10战斗机在一旁伴飞,疑似搭载不知名型号自制发动机的歼-20,在起飞时并没有如一般战斗机开加力般喷出火花,而是相当平顺地起飞,并且在几个盘旋后回到地面。

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another note,
pupu in his cjdby year 2011 admitted he mistook ws-10 variant on j20 for other type of engines.
i m unsure if he has yet corrected his view since then?

pupu on j-20's engine.jpg
 

tphuang

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could you give a link about Russia stop exporting Al-31s for new Flankers?

Sukhoi`s claims the license is till going on, quiet confusing, specially it is supposedly it stopped, what does sukhoi mean by the license is still going on, second i do not understand why Saturn will be upset by selling more Al-31s?

Russia deems J-11B to be produced illegally, so it stopped selling AL-31Fs that could be used for it.

To be honest you do not make sense unless of course you can prove it.

Cooperation with China in the field of military aviation develops successfully. The implementation of the program of Su-type licensed aircraft production is going on, as well as the delivery of spare parts for previously delivered aircraft.
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i do not understand your point since they say they also=as well delivere spare parts, the news seem to imply China can still build new Sukhois and further more will deliver parts.

Could you please elaborate?


VSUE GTERPC Salut concluded a contract with Chinese Air Force for supply of spare parts for aircraft engines.
In the course of the International Airshow China-2012 talks on mutually beneficial cooperation between VSUE GTERPC Salut and representatives of Chinese Air Force, foreign trade companies and plants repairing aircraft engines of type АL-31F have been held.

As a result VSUE GTERPC Salut concluded a contract for supply of spare parts for aircraft engine repair in 2013 with Chinese foreign trade company Tianli.

During the show mockups of AL-31FN-М1afterburning turbofan vectored-thrust engine, AI-222-25 engine for trainer aircraft Yak-130, small-scale engine MD-120 and models of low pressure compressor 1-st stage for АI-222-25 engine were exhibited.

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Since Saturn is the one delivering the spare parts and engines what does it mean sukhoi?

I will have to go home to dig this up. I think it was on kanwa interviews. It was also stated by numerous "big shrimps" on Chinese forums that have credibility. They have actually purchased a bunch of AL-31F engines from Russia recently, but it's all been used as replacements for the older flanker planes.

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Mig-29, there is a huge difference between selling AL-31F as replacements for older aircraft or selling AL-31F spare parts vs new AL-31F. Have you seen. Your source doesn't really state anything to the contrary.
 

tphuang

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That is just your assumption! Russian still export AL-31F engine to China for flanker series. Clearly its China who not choose to fit their new build J-11B, J-11BS , J-15S and J-16 with AL-31F but WS-10A. How do Russian ensure the AL-31F engine export to China only goes to old Su-27 frame or J-11A and not J-11B, J-11BS, J-15? The fact, old Su-27SK or J-11A uses newly bought russian AL-31F is because to rid of the unnecessary cost of modifying it to fit WS-10A. While new J-11 series are using domestic engine because they have their own supply and WS-10A offer higher thrust.

WS-10A is perfect. I have strong backing of the facts it uses on initial flight test of J-16 and J-15S. PLAAF are ultra conservative people that they will not risk such risky test with even an engine of 0.0001% imperfect. WS-10A clearly is fit for even a single engine plane as demonstrate on 1034 prototype of J-10b.

Clearly you are abusing your power as you are the one making assumption and not rebunking my points wiith fact. What are you going to do? Ban or delete my theory backing with clear analysis while all your points is make up? Prove my point wrong instead of giving nonsense threat.

Russian never implement ban on engine export to J-11B. If you don't agree. Prove it.
WS-10A is fit to fly on J-10B as demonstrated of 1034 pt. If you don't agree. Prove it
WS-10A is mature engine as demonstrated on initial flight test of J-16 and J-15S using it instead of usual AL-31F. If you don't agree . Prove it.

If you think I'm abusing my power and want to keep arguing about this, fine. If you can get 3 members that agree with you and is willing to PM me to ask for a reversal of this decision and continue this argument until the end of time, then I will reverse my decision. That's to counter the 3 members on this thread who have already expressed annoyance at this topic.
 

Quickie

Colonel
did anyone remember the 1st flight of j-20 in 2011 that there was no visible flame from the engines when it took off?
if so could u guys pls explain that strange phenomenon?

人民网对于收费没看到发动机火焰的解读-
国防部回应“歼20”试飞 专家看视频称发动机有创新
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

人民网北京1月12日电 (记者 李杨洋) 据媒体报道,中国国防部外事办公室副主任关友飞11日晚在回答有关“歼-20”战斗机试飞问题时表示,中国发展武器装备不针对任何国家和特定目标。从时间上看,没有任何针对性,是正常的工作安排。国防部在间接证实“歼-20”试飞这一消息之前,网上已经有大量关于“歼-20首飞”的图片和视频在流传。据了解,视频同之前关于“歼-20”的照片一样,是一些军事爱好者在距离很远的地方自行拍摄的。

  流传的视频显示了“歼-20”的起飞过程,国内资深军事分析家陈光文在看完视频后对人民网记者说,起飞时并没有看到发动机尾部的喷火,这可能显示中国“歼-20”的红外隐身别有特色。

  他进一步解释说,就是在发动机尾喷流射出前就采取了红外冷却装置。据了解F-22同样使用了先进的红外隐身技术,通过喷流冷却矩形喷口,垂尾、平尾、尾撑向后延伸,可遮蔽发动机喷口的红外线辐射。在炽热喷流飞出尾喷口前就得到了降温,因而红外特征显著降低。此前,对于网络流传“歼-20”战机的发动机配置,很多国内外媒体都分析称“歼-20”在这一方面可能欠缺。陈光文称,“现在来看似乎是创新。可能会使用改进后的国产‘太行’发动机”。


  据新华网消息,在歼-20成功完成首飞落地后,试飞现场内外欢呼声一片,机场外的围观群众也接连放起鞭炮。据在现场实地观察的网友转述,歼-20进行首飞时,编号220的歼-10战斗机在一旁伴飞,疑似搭载不知名型号自制发动机的歼-20,在起飞时并没有如一般战斗机开加力般喷出火花,而是相当平顺地起飞,并且在几个盘旋后回到地面。

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another note,
pupu in his cjdby year 2011 admitted he mistook ws-10 variant on j20 for other type of engines.
i m unsure if he has yet corrected his view since then?

View attachment 7388

Probably nothing strange. Likely they decided not to use the afterburner for the J-20 first flight.
 

vesicles

Colonel
This theory has prove wrong so many times because WS-10A has used on the initial flight test of J-16 and J-15S. Do you know what does it means? WS-10A has already achieved maturity and reliability from the top level of PLAAF and the maker of the engine. Flying it on a single engine plane has absolutely no problem at all. This show J-10b is fit to equip with higher thrust WS-10A.

Yes, but J-15/J-16 are not completely new systems. Many of their components have been tested extensively and very mature. On the other hand, J-20 is a completely new platform that is still undergoing initial testing. It would be a bad idea to add another variable to the already complicated equation.
 

Engineer

Major
That is just rumours. SAC is actually helping CAC in the J-20 project. CAC never had any experience with heavy fighter jet before this, whereas SAC has experience from flanker project. You want your two biggest design bureaus to cooperate on something as big as this.
The issue isn't whether CAC had experience on X feature, but whether CAC needed outside help to begin with. Given CAC's track record, I would say CAC would have been fine without help. Also, keep in mind a competition was held, which wouldn't have happened if cooperation was the intention.

I haven't read any story of SAC siphoning revenues off other AVIC for J-31. What I heard is that even though SAC did not get the 4th generation project, it got funding (although no PLAAF designation) for its own project. If you any links where you get these rumours, please post them. Otherwise, you are just making up stuff.
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vesicles

Colonel
How do you prove its tightly controlled by AVIC? Liming parent company is SAC. If SAC like you say is tightly controlled by AVIC, I doubt project like 31001 of J-31 is able to materialise. We don't get big shrimp to air the bitching behind scene of SAC and Chengdu. They dare not risk themselves getting arrested. They are something can be said and some are totally not disclosed to public.

But from those small trait, it is easy to figure out something is going on. Tell me which latest build J-11B, J-11BS or J-16 or J-15 are running with AL-31F and not WS-10A and I will rest my case.

It IS tightly controlled. Every such institute in China belongs to the CCP and the Chinese govn't!!! If the heads of these institutes still want a career, any career, they better follow orders from the top. They are NOT independent companies!!! The ONLY reason that J-20 doesn't have WS-10A is the leadership in Beijing does not allow it. I have no clue why they decided to do that, but, again, the ONLY reason that J-20 does not have WS-10A is because Beijing does not believe the two fit together just yet. The decision comes from the top. Neither SAC nor CAC can make such decision.

Small tricks like shifting blames are possible, but something as huge as withholding an engine to J-20 would not slide in any govn't, especially when the evidence of the maturity of the engine is so clear. How do you explain yourself if you are the head of SAC when Beijing questions why you have not sent the engine to Chengdu?
 

Skywatcher

Captain
Would it be "dogpiling" if I also register my disapproval of Lion's incessant peddling of his unfounded SAC/WS-10 conspiracy theory?
 

vesicles

Colonel
Plus, any more un-necessary withholding of the engine would make SAC look even worse. Think of what the top brass is thinking about SAC... "will you guys ever get it done?" "It's bad enough that you guys can only come up with Su-27 derivatives like J-15/16. etc and nothing new, now you can't even finish an engine?!" "What are you good at???" I mean, if I were the head of SAC, I would want to get WS-10A out YESTERDAY so that I would look less useless in the eyes of the bosses in Beijing.
 
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tphuang

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The issue isn't whether CAC had experience on X feature, but whether CAC needed outside help to begin with. Given CAC's track record, I would say CAC would have been fine without help. Also, keep in mind a competition was held, which wouldn't have happened if cooperation was the intention.


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Well, we are getting really far off topic now. But for future sourcing information, this is good thing to explore. If you look at the link you posted, this random guy who started the thread spouted off his view, which got rebutted by the moderator of **** and then also another poster who stated that some of the big shrimps have said that it was 611 that asked 601 for help. So, when you get into such a scenario, you have to think about who has more credibility here, a guy with 900 posts or the moderator of the forum or the big shrimps?
 
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