Chinese Economics Thread

ENTED64

Junior Member
Registered Member
I think at this stage China should be the worlds biggest consumer market globally. Afterall, its surprising that despite having almost 4 times US population China consumes less than the US?
Yeah there's a lot of shall we say creative interpretation of the numbers going on. If you look at actual consumption numbers of goods China is #1 in basically everything. More cars, more appliances, more clothing, more more electronics, more everything in general. So why is it that USA still in theory has the biggest consumer market? Well creative interpretation of the numbers, exchange rate effects, services being kind of up in the air, etc.

Han Feizi has done a lot of work on this, see:
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He also did a podcast with TP Huang where this is also discussed:
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As one of my college professors once said, "If the data doesn't show what you want it to show, it's time to massage the data."
 

Eventine

Senior Member
Registered Member
Agreed, deflation is not necessarily the problem. The problem is low income and consumption growth which is running at~3% currently. In fact the nominal gdp growth rate is around 3% and is getting a push from deflation which adds to get the real growths at 5%.

There would be no issue if the wages were growing, consumption increasing, and employment rising. But that is not the case, the economy is growing at around 3-4% nominal rates, which is too low for this stage of development.

Ultimately, nominal GDP (in USD) has been stagnant since 2021. This is somewhat like Japan, whose nominal GDP (USD) has been stagnant, or even declined, for the past 3 decades.

The currency appreciating is the solution, it's in fact required. A 20% appreciation in yuan, will increase GDP by 25%, bringing it to around 25 trillion USD.
The issue is China wants to maintain its manufacturing industries and not have them move overseas like happened in the US and even Japan & South Korea. That’s what normally happens as wages rise and currencies appreciate - countries switch to higher margin services from lower margin manufacturing and the factories move to cheaper countries. But China is artificially delaying this transition for geopolitical purposes - e.g. slowing the rise of India, maintaining military industrial superiority over the West, etc.

Ultimately the robotics transition will obviate the need for cheap labor inputs and favor infrastructural superiority. As this transition deepens, China will be more willing to appreciate its currency. But I don’t think it’ll ever be like the US. The simple fact is that appreciating your currency without dominating the global financial markets is a recipe for disaster. The US could get away with it because it can play games with finance & banking to get everybody else to subsidize the dollar. China can’t & so currency appreciation could easily lead to a situation where you neither have the benefits of full scale financialization nor the benefits of manufacturing price competitiveness- the so called “middle income trap.”
 

abenomics12345

Junior Member
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I'm missing @abenomics12345 comments about Chinese deflation. Where is he?

@jli88 below answered your question:

The problem is low income and consumption growth which is running at~3% currently. In fact the nominal gdp growth rate is around 3% and is getting a push from deflation which adds to get the real growths at 5%.

There would be no issue if the wages were growing, consumption increasing, and employment rising. But that is not the case, the economy is growing at around 3-4% nominal rates, which is too low for this stage of development.

Study this.

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1763606121830.png

Study This:
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Which part of "insufficient demand" or "raise consumption significantly" is too difficult to understand?

Jiang Xiaojuan and Zhang Bin recently at conferences were precisely stating these issues. In fact I watched Zhang Bin debate Guo Kai and had a discussion with Zichen about it afterwards.

Anyone who wants to opine on these issues should study that document in depth.

The issue is China wants to maintain its manufacturing industries and not have them move overseas like happened in the US and even Japan & South Korea. That’s what normally happens as wages rise and currencies appreciate - countries switch to higher margin services from lower margin manufacturing and the factories move to cheaper countries. But China is artificially delaying this transition for geopolitical purposes - e.g. slowing the rise of India, maintaining military industrial superiority over the West, etc.

Ultimately the robotics transition will obviate the need for cheap labor inputs and favor infrastructural superiority. As this transition deepens, China will be more willing to appreciate its currency. But I don’t think it’ll ever be like the US. The simple fact is that appreciating your currency without dominating the global financial markets is a recipe for disaster. The US could get away with it because it can play games with finance & banking to get everybody else to subsidize the dollar. China can’t & so currency appreciation could easily lead to a situation where you neither have the benefits of full scale financialization nor the benefits of manufacturing price competitiveness- the so called “middle income trap.”

The way to do it is not to replace the USD led system but create a viable alternative financial system - for which you need CNY denominated assets that attract foreign capital. In other words, assets that generate returns attractive enough for foreigners to want to store their surplus in CNY as opposed to the USD. Note it is not an 'either or' choice with respect to manufacturing competitiveness and financialization - the idea is to do both. That is what the US did well in the 1950s-onward.

As a small example of why this is important, there's probably hundreds of billions of USD left overseas by exporters who sold products on Temu who didn't convert it back into CNY because the CNY has been weakening. That is cash sitting in US treasuries (or NVDA stock who knows) instead of being invested in Chinese factories.

Its cute some people on this forum don't realize that the real economy and the financial markets are deeply intertwined.
 

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hereforsemithread

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Chinese macro deflation is almost entirely a function of the continued contraction of the RE industry. But RE needs to continue contracting for a while before it gets to an appropriate size for stabilization, and Chinese policymakers view that structural adjustment as being worth potential deflationary issues. So I wouldn't expect the situation to change all that much for years.
 

HighGround

Senior Member
Registered Member
Chinese macro deflation is almost entirely a function of the continued contraction of the RE industry. But RE needs to continue contracting for a while before it gets to an appropriate size for stabilization, and Chinese policymakers view that structural adjustment as being worth potential deflationary issues. So I wouldn't expect the situation to change all that much for years.
The thing you folks need to understand is that two things can be true at once.

A. There are economies of scale driving down costs.
B. There are structural factors depressing demand.

The issue with "anti-China" Western economists is that they use political terms like "overcapacity" and at USD denominated "demand". They are not concerned with the actual economic data and are unwiling to dig through it, or listen to someobody who has.

This thread is also obsessive with trying to counter Western narratives about the Chinese economy, instead of having an insular discussion, like the actual Party, about the strengths and weaknesses of the economy.
 

RavenClaws

New Member
Registered Member
The issue is China wants to maintain its manufacturing industries and not have them move overseas like happened in the US and even Japan & South Korea. That’s what normally happens as wages rise and currencies appreciate - countries switch to higher margin services from lower margin manufacturing and the factories move to cheaper countries. But China is artificially delaying this transition for geopolitical purposes - e.g. slowing the rise of India, maintaining military industrial superiority over the West, etc.

Ultimately the robotics transition will obviate the need for cheap labor inputs and favor infrastructural superiority. As this transition deepens, China will be more willing to appreciate its currency. But I don’t think it’ll ever be like the US. The simple fact is that appreciating your currency without dominating the global financial markets is a recipe for disaster. The US could get away with it because it can play games with finance & banking to get everybody else to subsidize the dollar. China can’t & so currency appreciation could easily lead to a situation where you neither have the benefits of full scale financialization nor the benefits of manufacturing price competitiveness- the so called “middle income trap.”
IMO The mantra that economies upgrade in stages such that industry will inevitably be abandoned for finance and services is nothing but neoliberal propaganda to justify globalization: rob the wealth from the middle class to put into your own pockets.

You must continue to invest in your manufacturing supply chains and infrastructure else you rot away like the neoliberal hellholes of the west in the last few decades. Imagine going from being able to make hundreds of ships during WW2 to having hundreds of times less shipbuilding capacity than Korea today. China should rather have robotics + automation with the supply chain remains within control rather than outsourcing labour just to put more money in the ownership class' offshore accounts.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
IMO The mantra that economies upgrade in stages such that industry will inevitably be abandoned for finance and services is nothing but neoliberal propaganda to justify globalization: rob the wealth from the middle class to put into your own pockets.

You must continue to invest in your manufacturing supply chains and infrastructure else you rot away like the neoliberal hellholes of the west in the last few decades. Imagine going from being able to make hundreds of ships during WW2 to having hundreds of times less shipbuilding capacity than Korea today. China should rather have robotics + automation with the supply chain remains within control rather than outsourcing labour just to put more money in the ownership class' offshore accounts.
It’s the new talking point from the three letter agencies

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hereforsemithread

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There are economies of scale driving down costs.
This is not a controlled-for variable. Chinese internal market for manufactures has been characterized by firms pursuing high-volume, low-margin market-share strategies for basically as long as China has had an appreciable manufacturing sector. This is partially a result of state policy, and partially just because of China's sheer size in people and space. Blaming intense competition for China's current bout of deflation is like blaming a plane crash on gravity.

What has changed, then? It's the real estate sector. And when I talk about the RE decline causing deflation, I am not only talking about things like the drop in bulk commodities prices due to declining construction activity. There are several other domains affected. For instance, when people buy new homes, they want to furnish them with furniture and appliances. So a steep decline in home purchases will lead directly to a fall in demand for such items.

But the most significant is the effect of declining land sales on the financial system. The precipitous fall in new land sales since late 2021 means that the pace at which new liquidity enters the system has been dramatically reduced, because those sales were financed by bank loans, which immediately increase M2 by the amount loaned. Less liquidity sloshing around the system means lower asset price levels across the board, and THAT means less pay for "asset managers" since their compensation is directly tied to asset prices via commissions and periodic fees.

What this all means is that the 3 Red Lines have basically nuked the income of everybody involved in financial consulting or fund management of any kind, and with that the hiring levels of firms in those sectors. I am certain @abenomics12345 can corroborate this point.

The resulting loss of income and job security experienced by people in finance and finance-adjacent industries in the wake of the 3RL naturally leads to a decline in consumption. So, we expect that traditional centers of financial activity in the mainland, like Shanghai and Beijing, would experience flat or even slightly declining consumption. Moreover, considering the broader boom in the manufacturing sector since the end of covid, we would expect relatively smaller cities with economies more centered around manufacturing specifically to see robust consumption growth, in many cases exceeding that of national GDP.
Empirical data proves this.
See
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like the actual Party, about the strengths and weaknesses of the economy.
The fact is China's current macro economic trajectory is very strong. That is why there have been no majors policy pivots during the 14th five year plan period. While not perfect, industrial policy and technological upgrading efforts have overall gone very well and are likely to only get better as a massive wave of new STEM talent enters the workforce over the next decade or so. Yes, the deep structural adjustment of the housing market is painful. That's what happens when you deliberately cut off almost all credit to a sector that directly and indirectly contributed to about 30% of your entire GDP. But this has been more than compensated for by the exceptional growth in the size and technological competency of China's manufacturing sector over the past five years.
As the data shows, most of the current issues regarding consumer confidence are confined to tier-1 cities that have been hit hardest by the financial fallout of the housing correction. The solution to this is to stay that course such that consumption spending throughout the country is re-balanced away from a handful of the wealthiest mega-cities and towards a much larger number of comparatively smaller ones. This will take time, since the latter's share in consumption spending is disproportionately small. In the meantime growth is likely to be a bit slower, and inflation a bit weaker. That is okay.
The NDRC is not going to change its mind on this.
 
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