Chinese Economics Thread

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
A country's standard of living is determined by the abundance of goods and services. The greater the quantity of goods and services offered, and the greater the diversity of this offer, the higher the population's standard of living.

After a population has attained a "reasonable" standard of living, additional goods or services does not increase happiness.

The studies indicate that:

1. At a micro level, it is the quality of your relationships that determines happiness

2. At a macro level, more equal societies are happier than unequal societies (irrespective of how they get there)

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If more goods don't make you happier, what is the point of endless consumption
 

Sinnavuuty

Senior Member
Registered Member
After a population has attained a "reasonable" standard of living, additional goods or services does not increase happiness.

The studies indicate that:

1. At a micro level, it is the quality of your relationships that determines happiness

2. At a macro level, more equal societies are happier than unequal societies (irrespective of how they get there)

---
If more goods don't make you happier, what is the point of endless consumption
I think you're getting off topic. It has no direct connection with happiness, which is another causal issue with the standard of living.

It's easy to understand this when you analyze why people wake up early and go to work every day: they do it to earn an income, which they will use to obtain goods and services. In other words, they work and produce in order to obtain things in return.

The ultimate goal of work and production is consumption. And the more unobstructed this consumption is, the greater the capacity of this population to exchange the fruits of their labor for goods and services. Therefore, the higher the standard of living of these people will be.

Working and producing -- that is, creating supply -- means demanding things. And this is true even if this worker saves 100% of his income: by saving, he is merely transferring demand to third parties, be they borrowers, companies in which he invests, charities to which he donates, or even transfers to his children and grandchildren.

The main point is that production, always and everywhere, is the expression of demand.

There are only two ways to increase the income of individuals in a country -- that is, the per capita income -- of a society: either by increasing the total number of hours during which goods and services are produced, or by increasing the number of goods and services produced per hour of work.

In other words: either one works more or one works more productively.

These are the only two possible ways to increase the income of each individual in the economy. Either he increases his workload and, consequently, starts to produce a greater quantity of goods and services (whose sales will allow him to earn more income), or he maintains his working hours and starts to produce more things during this same time interval (which will also allow him to earn more income).

In the long term, of course, the standard of living of any society can only improve in a sustained manner if it opts for the second alternative: after all, the maximum number of hours that individuals in a society can work is materially limited, so the only option left for them is to increase productivity.

Therefore, a higher quality of life requires higher productivity. However, here is the problem: productivity in less developed economies is low. There is a certain consensus on the causes of low productivity:

Low qualification and capacity of workers (human capital)
Outdated and poorly managed technology in companies (physical capital)
Expensive and below-necessary investment (financial capital)
Insufficient and dilapidated infrastructure (highways, railways, waterways, ports)
Complicated bureaucracy
Confusing and rigid business environment

It is worth noting that there is a difference between economic growth and economic enrichment. It is perfectly possible for a country to have stagnant productivity, and then it is mathematically obvious that GDP was driven mainly by an increase in the workforce (the famous "demographic bonus"). In other words, the economy grew simply because more people entered the job market. More people working and producing generated an inevitable increase in the goods and services produced (obviously), and so GDP grew. But this is "inertial" growth. It is not lasting growth. It is the type of growth that tends to stagnate as soon as the number of people entering the job market stops growing. And that is where the real problem begins.

Since poverty is the absence of material goods, its solution is obvious. To overcome poverty, wealth creation is crucial.

Although it has flaws, the best indicator to portray the true wealth of a country is still GDP per capita by PPP. Essentially, GDP per capita represents the division between the total goods and services produced by an economy and its total population. The indicator seeks to present an average measurement of the wealth of individuals in each country. Consequently, the higher the GDP per capita, the greater the average wealth of each individual and, by definition, the lower their poverty. However, there is a very common criticism of GDP per capita: it does not measure inequalities in income distribution or the real availability of goods and services per capita due to the exchange rate factor.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
I think you're getting off topic. It has no direct connection with happiness, which is another causal issue with the standard of living.

Go to the root.

Why does a high "standard of living" matter?

Because at the root, it is supposed to increase "happiness".

Increasing the standard of living (eg. escaping from poverty into a middle-class lifestyle) is but a means to this objective. I'm pointing that once you reach a middle-class lifestyle, the studies indicate additional consumption decreases happiness. So what is the point of consuming more if it makes people unhappy?

Don't confuse the means with the objective.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Money can’t necessarily buy you happiness but it sure can prevent finance induced depression.

Think of the mindset.

If more and more purchases equals happiness, then the objective is to spend everything. But there will inevitably be financial setbacks/demands of some sort in life. So now you're in finance induced depression due to debt and/or having to cut back.

So the mindset of not spending everything (and the resulting saving/investing) results in a happier and more content life.

The caveat is that this should apply only once a middle-class lifestyle is attained.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Think of the mindset.

If more and more purchases equals happiness, then the objective is to spend everything. But there will inevitably be financial setbacks/demands of some sort in life. So now you're in finance induced depression due to debt and/or having to cut back.

So the mindset of not spending everything (and the resulting saving/investing) results in a happier and more content life.

The caveat is that this should apply only once a middle-class lifestyle is attained.

You don’t understand. I’m not taking about spending money on useless crap but being able to afford housing, food, transportation. And not being saddled with debt. That reduces stress by a lot.
 

tygyg1111

Captain
Registered Member
This is the problem. China's industrial production is about US$5 trillion, even if Chinese industrial production jumped to US$10 trillion, which is about 4x more than the US produces, China's standard of living would still be lower than the US's, because of China's large population, which is more than 4x larger.

That is not what is under discussion, but the issue of China's need to import. What China exports allows it to import the same amount of goods and services that it exports. A surplus of US$1 trillion is an economic aberration, because if this surplus were used to import more goods and services, the standard of living of the Chinese population would be higher than it is today.

And it is not just a question of who has the most competitive products, the exchange rate factor weighs on the decision to import. If Chinese monetary policy were more suited to providing a higher standard of living for the population, the renminbi would have already appreciated against the dollar, allowing the Chinese to access even more goods and services from around the world.

Countries that need to import do not need to survive, they need to provide a higher quality of life for their population. Access to goods from all over the world at affordable prices transforms a higher quality of life for their population, whether a country is poor in resources or has abundance. What guarantees a high-quality standard of living is having access to goods and services. Even if China produced twice as much as it does now, they would not even have come close to a European standard of living.

I think we should stop talking about China here, the topic is about the American economy. If you want, reply to me on the Chinese economy topic.
I'm not seeing the logical step that links the cause and effect of the bolded sentence. This is essentially what India does, however India is nowhere close to China in quality of life. This is also what the US did in the past, leading to deindustrialization and today's woes.

The second question is what goods and services exist outside of China that are good enough to compete with local Chinese goods and services, and what benefits importing (rather than producing their own) would bring, in the long term. Long term consideration is needed because sustainability.
Very few examples spring to mind - Tesla (again made in China, not imported), which helped level up local EV companies in their infancy by bringing in a then-world class competitor, ICE auto JV's (again MIC, not imported) which helped level up supply chains and worker skills, Foxconn (MIC) for electronics, which all have a use by date when the "leveling has upped". Again the benefits from these were all in the form of making in China and transferring the necessary skill and tech foundation, rather than importing something that most people then could not afford (and now won't buy because they are no longer competitive).

The USD/CNY exchange rate issue is a mickey mouse issue to me; it only affects imports and overseas spending. Yes, there is an increase in QOL when travelling etc., but that doesn't drive further internal growth and thus isn't a sustainable increase (you are spending your money in someone else's country).

Re: European standard of living - they achieved this through industrialization, which allowed them to manufacture more at less cost and export the surplus. Colonization (read: stealing of resources and slave labor) also helped a lot in expanding the scope of their QOL.

I'm not sure if your background is economics (in which case you may need to de-kool aid yourself from certain theories), but the notion that importing brings prosperity is both erroneous and also doesn't work if you produce the majority of and the best goods.

Mods - feel free to move this discussion to the Chinese Economics thread if it is more appropriate there.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
This is the problem. China's industrial production is about US$5 trillion, even if Chinese industrial production jumped to US$10 trillion, which is about 4x more than the US produces, China's standard of living would still be lower than the US's, because of China's large population, which is more than 4x larger.

That is not what is under discussion, but the issue of China's need to import. What China exports allows it to import the same amount of goods and services that it exports. A surplus of US$1 trillion is an economic aberration, because if this surplus were used to import more goods and services, the standard of living of the Chinese population would be higher than it is today.

And it is not just a question of who has the most competitive products, the exchange rate factor weighs on the decision to import. If Chinese monetary policy were more suited to providing a higher standard of living for the population, the renminbi would have already appreciated against the dollar, allowing the Chinese to access even more goods and services from around the world.

Countries that need to import do not need to survive, they need to provide a higher quality of life for their population. Access to goods from all over the world at affordable prices transforms a higher quality of life for their population, whether a country is poor in resources or has abundance. What guarantees a high-quality standard of living is having access to goods and services. Even if China produced twice as much as it does now, they would not even have come close to a European standard of living.

I think we should stop talking about China here, the topic is about the American economy. If you want, reply to me on the Chinese economy topic.
You basically advocating China to repeat the same mistake as the US made.
 

henrik

Senior Member
Registered Member
I'm not seeing the logical step that links the cause and effect of the bolded sentence. This is essentially what India does, however India is nowhere close to China in quality of life. This is also what the US did in the past, leading to deindustrialization and today's woes.

The second question is what goods and services exist outside of China that are good enough to compete with local Chinese goods and services, and what benefits importing (rather than producing their own) would bring, in the long term. Long term consideration is needed because sustainability.
Very few examples spring to mind - Tesla (again made in China, not imported), which helped level up local EV companies in their infancy by bringing in a then-world class competitor, ICE auto JV's (again MIC, not imported) which helped level up supply chains and worker skills, Foxconn (MIC) for electronics, which all have a use by date when the "leveling has upped". Again the benefits from these were all in the form of making in China and transferring the necessary skill and tech foundation, rather than importing something that most people then could not afford (and now won't buy because they are no longer competitive).

The USD/CNY exchange rate issue is a mickey mouse issue to me; it only affects imports and overseas spending. Yes, there is an increase in QOL when travelling etc., but that doesn't drive further internal growth and thus isn't a sustainable increase (you are spending your money in someone else's country).

Re: European standard of living - they achieved this through industrialization, which allowed them to manufacture more at less cost and export the surplus. Colonization (read: stealing of resources and slave labor) also helped a lot in expanding the scope of their QOL.

I'm not sure if your background is economics (in which case you may need to de-kool aid yourself from certain theories), but the notion that importing brings prosperity is both erroneous and also doesn't work if you produce the majority of and the best goods.

Mods - feel free to move this discussion to the Chinese Economics thread if it is more appropriate there.

It was tesla that benefited from China's EV technology.
 
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