Chinese Economics Thread

siegecrossbow

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China has done a ton of building in the developing world.

Over the past two decades, it has financed and built bridges, hospitals, roads, railways, airports and seaports — many billions of dollars' worth and counting. "China has recently become a major financier of economic infrastructure," according to a new report from AidData, a development finance research lab based at the College of William & Mary.

That sounds like a good thing. But there are skeptics.

Development experts and Western politicians have raised many questions: What is China's goal in building all this? Are these projects well-constructed? And are they actually beneficial?

Now the AidData team at the College of William & Mary is using night lights to shed some light on that last question.

In recent years, China has been very clear about its ambitions to expand trade and influence via infrastructure and investments in other countries. They call it the "Belt and Road Initiative." But nearly everything else about China's development strategy — its spending, projects and project locations — is officially a state secret.

That shroud of secrecy has bolstered a popular narrative that China is a "
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" that pours money into undemocratic governments to promote Chinese growth and access to natural resources. Skeptics say the Chinese projects are of little use to the countries, often in Africa, where they're built. Politicians have described some of them as
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. They point to
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,
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and other projects that cost a great deal to build but aren't actually getting a lot of use.

It also doesn't help that there have been numerous accounts of shoddy construction: A
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washed away during the 2009 rainy season. A
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collapsed during construction in 2017. And a
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was evacuated months after opening in 2010 for fear it would collapse.

Development specialists say these accounts are concerning, yet some leaders of recipient countries still voice their preference for working with China. Their argument is that China is a "one-stop shop," not only financing projects but building them as well. Often, it's cheaper and faster to work with China than with traditional donors, like the World Bank, and it comes with fewer strings attached, such as requirements to privatize the project once it's built.

And now there's another point in China's favor.
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suggests that China's infrastructure projects may be better at reducing inequality in developing countries than many Western programs.

"It could be anecdotally true that a given project was a white elephant, but it isn't systematically true," says
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, one of the study's authors and executive director of AidData.

Parks says that according to his team's research, there is a strong correlation between Chinese projects and economic growth in the countries where they're built. He also says that Chinese-financed "connective infrastructure" — things that connect people from one place to another, such as roads, bridges, railways and ports — are distributing economic growth into rural areas more evenly than traditional Western development programs have. That's because China favors projects that connect people and businesses from rural, remote interior areas to bigger coastal cities, where there are more economic opportunities.

The AidData team came to that conclusion after identifying and locating more than 4,400 Chinese development projects implemented in 138 countries between 2000 and 2014. They did so using online sources, like news articles, Chinese embassy websites and field research from academics and nongovernmental organizations.

"The Chinese government doesn't have a central data set that they share," Parks says. "But there's a huge amount of information that is scattered across the Web."

Then they looked at nighttime satellite images from the U.S. Defense Meteorological Satellite Program's Operational Linescan System satellites. Parks says that it's "reasonably well-established in [academic] literature" that nighttime light is a good indicator of household income – more light means that families in that area have more money.

The AidData researchers measured changes over time, starting back in 2000 and going up to 2013, in the amount of light visible within a certain distance from China's connective infrastructure. They found that in the later images, light was not just concentrated in the immediate vicinity of the projects, but it also had spread within the provinces and districts where they were built, as well as between provinces and districts. This, they say, suggests that Chinese connective infrastructure is spreading economic growth across large regions.

Some researchers, though, say there's more digging to be done.

"There is no doubt that many Chinese investments have had a positive impact, regardless of how short-lived," says
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, an international lawyer based in East Africa. "That said, it is important to determine [definitively] if incomes are increasing, what money is being spent on and whether quality of life is improving. It is not enough to look at economic growth figures, because they do not adequately tell the story at the micro-level or change our daily engagement with poverty."

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, director and professor of energy, resources and environment at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies says he thinks the study is "a good step forward" and consistent with what other research has shown about the potential of infrastructure to reduce inequality.

"The next step would be to collect more detail on what's actually happening in these communities," Urpelainen says — for example, if any factors, other than household income, are contributing to more light. "It's a very big challenge, but that seems to be the most important next step."

Parks agrees that their measures of light "could also capture other aspects of human development, including local health and education outcomes." But, he says, even if it does include other factors, finding a relationship between connective infrastructure and those results – including reduced inequality – is "still good news."
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
This makes the things interesting.

Either the house prices drop to half, and the empty apartments will be filled, or the salaries will increase double-fold , and the apartments will be full in ten years time.

The price drop using up the empty apartments fast, and keep the construction industry busy, the second one lead to a Japanese style deflation, with death construction industry, and freeze house market for one ( few )decade)

So, either the housing price collapse, OR the construction industry ( with all employment) ,

Your reasoning makes no sense. If there is a 50% collapse in house prices, then we will see a general economic downturn. Who wants to buy a house if you know prices have just collapsed and could go down further? And you can't fill those houses overnight, and it will cripple the house building industry.

The second option is that wages increase and China continues to urbanise. That gradually fills up the empty houses, and provides a smoother drawdown of the construction industry to a sustainable level over the next 10 years. The construction industry has to start getting smaller, because China will soon be approaching the point when it will be fully urbanised.

Remember that Japan experienced deflation because it was already a wealthy developed nation, but housing prices went astronomically high. So it couldn't rely on either rising wages or high inflation. Chinese house prices aren't anywhere near Japanese levels.

The best solution is for house prices to be stable, so that inflation and rising wages make housing affordable for more and more people.

From a societal point of view, it is better for everyone to have a bigger house which is also cheap.
People will tend to buy and consume more stuff if they have a bigger house.
Bigger and cheaper houses also make raising more children affordable, which will help raise the birthrate.
 
Where I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, the homeless have taken over freeways. When you drive along freeways, the homeless are camped out along the freeways everywhere. It's truly a blight. The freeways are under the jurisdiction of the state of California so local authorities have no say. Personally I have no sympathy for the homeless. When they started getting the national attention in the US, I was a kid then and I would hear of incidents where the homeless would attack Asians because Asians had homes while they didn't. One time I had a homeless guy call me over. I did not come over ignoring him so he had to catch up to me and he started telling me how Asians don't give money to the homeless. I turned to him and said, "Then why are you following me? If Asians don't give homeless money, what the F are you talking to me for?" He immediately turned and walked away. If that's what they believe, why do I see homeless hanging around Chinatown panhandling? Yeah in San Francisco they could be going after tourist money but across the bay in Oakland's Chinatown it's not a tourist destination. Chinatown stores have groceries outside and I see the homeless just take and walk away without paying like it was their right.

Anybody remember the New York Times story where they found a homeless person in China and it was to them a declaration China was a failure as an economy and was suppose to embrace the Western economic system of doing things?

What do you think of SF's new "homeless tax?"
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
What do you think of SF's new "homeless tax?"


I've heard of it but only know it on the surface. I don't live in SF. If the tech giants want to pay, that's fine but as usual I don't think they're going to fix the problem. They are at the core the problem why housing is so expensive. Their workers can't afford housing near where they work. They should build housing for their workers close by. They can afford to build a giant apartment building. I hardly go to SF these day because the traffic is horrible. I was there earlier in the year and downtown smelled like urine and marijuana. The City of San Francisco created new jobs that pay six figure salaries. The only thing you have to do is spend most of the night shoveling human feces off the streets of San Francisco. The risks is you might contract things like hepatitis on the job.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Your reasoning makes no sense. If there is a 50% collapse in house prices, then we will see a general economic downturn. Who wants to buy a house if you know prices have just collapsed and could go down further? And you can't fill those houses overnight, and it will cripple the house building industry.

The second option is that wages increase and China continues to urbanise. That gradually fills up the empty houses, and provides a smoother drawdown of the construction industry to a sustainable level over the next 10 years. The construction industry has to start getting smaller, because China will soon be approaching the point when it will be fully urbanised.

Remember that Japan experienced deflation because it was already a wealthy developed nation, but housing prices went astronomically high. So it couldn't rely on either rising wages or high inflation. Chinese house prices aren't anywhere near Japanese levels.

The best solution is for house prices to be stable, so that inflation and rising wages make housing affordable for more and more people.

From a societal point of view, it is better for everyone to have a bigger house which is also cheap.
People will tend to buy and consume more stuff if they have a bigger house.
Bigger and cheaper houses also make raising more children affordable, which will help raise the birthrate.
having extreme level of unoccupied housing making it very difficult to do anything slowly and non-painfully.
They should started the changes decade(s) ago.

The heavy duty truck manufacturing number (12 month rolling) dropped down from 1.8 million to 1.1 million ( rolling 12 month ) .
Considering that one of the main driver of HD sales is the construction industry I don't know how they can do slow moves, to smooth the pain.

At the same time the tradingeconomics showing exploding house prices there.

china-housing-index.png
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Or, they can do it Chinese style, which is to lift more poor people out of poverty, expand the middle and upper class, turn empty lots into ghost towns then use those new middle class people to turn ghost towns into metropolises and keep growing. Hell, I think Beijing and Shanghai are too crowded. Time for some new cities to take on some population, both by diverting from migration into the established cities and by serving as a destination for people tired of living in the Beijing traffic.

But...but...but than that means that all those China basher and naysayers will lose face about those China "ghost towns" turning to vibrant growing metropolis without bums occupying the streets defecating and urinating in public. They will have no story to go by to support their prejudice narrative on China.:D:cool:
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
But...but...but than that means that all those China basher and naysayers will lose face about those China "ghost towns" turning to vibrant growing metropolis without bums occupying the streets defecating and urinating in public. They will have no story to go by to support their prejudice narrative on China.:D:cool:
IT will turn into , there is huge amount of poor who wants nice dwelling , question is how China will transfer the assets from the rich to the poor?

Japanese style, USA great depression style, Roman empire collapse style?

Everyone talking about the end point, but not about that how to get there .
I mean, it is easy to get the gold from the sunken ship 3000 meters deep, question is how you get there without die during the diving.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
IT will turn into , there is huge amount of poor who wants nice dwelling , question is how China will transfer the assets from the rich to the poor?

Japanese style, USA great depression style, Roman empire collapse style?

Everyone talking about the end point, but not about that how to get there .
I mean, it is easy to get the gold from the sunken ship 3000 meters deep, question is how you get there without die during the diving.

The key requirement is a vibrant middle class society, but China is simply not there yet.

And the other thing is a high minimum wage as a transfer mechanism. And in the future, potentially that would turn into a universal basic income if the vast majority of jobs are automated.

Please stop being melodramatic with your comparisons.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
having extreme level of unoccupied housing making it very difficult to do anything slowly and non-painfully.
They should started the changes decade(s) ago.

The heavy duty truck manufacturing number (12 month rolling) dropped down from 1.8 million to 1.1 million ( rolling 12 month ) .
Considering that one of the main driver of HD sales is the construction industry I don't know how they can do slow moves, to smooth the pain.

At the same time the tradingeconomics showing exploding house prices there.

Exploding house prices is like a 20% annual increase in price. That is not what we see with house prices in China.

There is a high level of unoccupied housing stock, but it can be gradually brought down over the next 10 years, if you look at the figures.

The heavy truck manufacturing industry is not particularly relevant. The construction industry should start shrinking in the future become built out.

It is consumer consumption and the industries of the future which are and will be the drivers of future growth. That is what will drive incomes higher.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
IT will turn into , there is huge amount of poor who wants nice dwelling , question is how China will transfer the assets from the rich to the poor?

Japanese style, USA great depression style, Roman empire collapse style?

Everyone talking about the end point, but not about that how to get there .
I mean, it is easy to get the gold from the sunken ship 3000 meters deep, question is how you get there without die during the diving.
LOL Why Japanese style, USA style, or Roman style? Are we talking about Japan, USA or Italy? They follow their styles and China follows ours.

I already told you, it will be done Chinese style, and the middle class will be expanded and the poor will be uplifted, as it always has been in the PRC. I know you fear Chinese style but shoving your head into a hole in the ground and pretending it doesn't exist will not change the world around you...
 
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