Chinese Economics Thread

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
As I said before those technical analysis is reading tea leaves I don't know any one can get rich from reading technical analysis . "Past is bad future predictor of future"

Anyway China's urbanization rate is still low something like 56% vs 90% in the developed world
So in the next 20 years China has to move something line 400 million country folk into the cities So demand for housing, school, transport, road, shopping mall will be robust for decades to come .

Plus most Chinese buy house as investment too because it is cultural thing .You can see it in HOngkong, Singapore, Taiwan. It is their prime investment goal . Something solid like brick and land
Compare to those place the housing prices in China are still relatively low.

The risk of of financial meltdown due to mortgage failure are low because of the requirement for high down payment in any home purchase in China. Compare to western world China personal loan is still low

The percentage of population living in urban areas was 56.1% in April of this year, with a target rate of 60% by 2020. According to the National Bureau of Statistics, migrant workers comprised 19.76% of China's total population in 2013, while urban residents comprised 35.7% of the total population.Dec 28, 2016
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: D

The history of the financial bubles extremly long, and every single one has one common elements: same fundamental trend, that explained everything, and used as excuse for any extreme price level.
During the .com manie it was the efficiency increase from the internet, it was correct, but it happened over two decade, not two years.
Or the US housing market, they said that the house prices never decreased in the US. They decrease in 2008 : D
OR whatever,

In China it is about urbanisation, honey for house and so on.

It must be reasonable, to pull in the masses into the buble, it is the basic requirement for any mania.
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400 years of bubles enought?
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
China is not behind in semiconductor contrary to your prejudice. The west only lead is in CPU and GBU Even that is being challenged right now . China weakness is in manufacturing FAB due to high cost and technical embargo but those weakness are being addressed right now. Less than a quarter of semiconductor is in the US hand
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As I wrote in the Journal of Economic Affairs, China dominates the key digital technologies:

  • Liquid crystal displays, which are employed in a wide variety of products, with $100 billion in annual sales. South Korea controls 35% of the market, Taiwan 25%, and China 20%.
  • Light-emitting diodes (LEDs) are produced mainly in China and Taiwan.
  • China and Taiwan dominate the production of semiconductor lasers, the energy source for fiber optic communications.
  • Solid state sensors, which generate images in digital cameras and related devices, are produced mainly in Taiwan and Japan.
  • Flash memory is produced mainly in South Korea, Japan and China, with only 10% of world output coming from the United States.
  • Integrated circuits are a $270 billion global industry. Most are produced in Taiwan and South Korea, and China has undertaken an aggressive investment program in the industry. Less than a quarter of world output is produced in the United States.
  • Solar energy panels, a $30 billion industry, are dominated by China.
On several occasions the US Department of Defense has had to abandon high-tech research projects that require sophisticated micro-manufacturing because it could not find an American manufacturer capable of executing the task. Defense Department rules exclude the use of foreign manufacturers, and in some fields the only technical capacity is located in South Korea, Taiwan, or other countries.
Generaly, the semi industry revolving around the manufacturing , there is the big money ( the TSMC making a big pile of money)

The problem is not that to design an IC for a satelite, but to manufacture it.
The radhard circuits needs special technology to make, and these stuf doesn;'t have any commercial equivalent.

This is the biggest roadblock to make satelites for China (and Russia).
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And the US still has 50% market share in semicounctor manufacturing.

Semiconductor manufacturing equipment is 94% controled by the US/Japan/Neatherlands

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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
II agree, China is as different as say the UK housing bubble was different from the US or from the current Chinese one.

: D

Every bubble different.
Then don't compare them.
They common only in one important aspect: they last longer than your sanity to stay on the sideline .
I don't know what you are trying to say with your broken English but it's wrong. The housing bubbles you cited have already burst, and everyone's sanity (except yours) is still normal. But China's "bubble" has not and if it lasts longer than my sanity, that means it's still got several decades left before I go senile. So what you just said makes no sense... again. This is why you don't try to get clever with word games in a language that you don't really know.

Are you still doing this stupid shit of trying to talk down the performance of a 13 trillion USD economy growing at 7% per year? You can't; you look stupid, like you're trying to argue that up is down and down is up. Nobody takes you seriously; we just make fun of your jealous Haterade mentality. Come back if China's economy tanks and maybe then what you say won't sound so stupid.
 

Franklin

Captain
China's housing market has a pricing bubble. There are about 50 million homes that are sold but stands empty in China today. The owners of those homes are holding these houses as a store of value rather than a place to live in. In my view prices of real estate in China are too high and should come down. Falling housing prices in China today will be a good thing. The effect of falling housing prices on the Chinese economy won't be as big as people think. Because consumption in China is not driven by higher asset prices. But rather consumption in China is driven by higher income. This is due to improvement in education and infrastructure on the one hand and investments in higher end production and services industries on the other hand. The less money that goes into buying and investing in real estate means more resources will be available to other parts of the economy.
 

vesicles

Colonel
: D

The history of the financial bubles extremly long, and every single one has one common elements: same fundamental trend, that explained everything, and used as excuse for any extreme price level.
During the .com manie it was the efficiency increase from the internet, it was correct, but it happened over two decade, not two years.
Or the US housing market, they said that the house prices never decreased in the US. They decrease in 2008 : D
OR whatever,

In China it is about urbanisation, honey for house and so on.

It must be reasonable, to pull in the masses into the buble, it is the basic requirement for any mania.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

400 years of bubles enought?

A major difference between your examples of all the previous bubbles and China is that all your examples happened in already developed nations and economies. China is still a developing nation and is far from being developed.

What you see as bubbles in China is simply normal progress in their development. As Xi mentioned in his goals, they still need to expand every aspect of their economy significantly to completely eliminate poverty in China by 2050.

There is still a significant fraction of their population that still lives in poverty. All the excessive housing / goods “bubbles” that you talk about will be comfortably absorbed by these people when they gain more purchasing power.

Keep in mind that we are talking about a teenager still in his growth spurts, not a fully grown adult. So all the “excessive” nutrients will most likely be used for him to grow more, less likely to be turned into fat and make him obese.
 

broadsword

Brigadier
II agree, China is as different as say the UK housing bubble was different from the US or from the current Chinese one.

: D

Every bubble different.
They common only in one important aspect: they last longer than your sanity to stay on the sideline .

Talking about differences

But of course , the Chinese buble will be diferent, as the UK, US, Japanese, Australian, Austrian, German, Hungarian, Dutch ,Spanish and so on was diferent from all previous one, and was granted to last forever : D

Are you able to see the common thread that runs through these countries?
 

vesicles

Colonel
: D

The history of the financial bubles extremly long, and every single one has one common elements: same fundamental trend, that explained everything, and used as excuse for any extreme price level.
During the .com manie it was the efficiency increase from the internet, it was correct, but it happened over two decade, not two years.
Or the US housing market, they said that the house prices never decreased in the US. They decrease in 2008 : D
OR whatever,

In China it is about urbanisation, honey for house and so on.

It must be reasonable, to pull in the masses into the buble, it is the basic requirement for any mania.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

400 years of bubles enought?

So you assume China is the same as all those countries on your list?

Let’s look at the US. Everybody says there was a housing bubble in the US. However, Texas, the third biggest economy within the US, has never had a housing bubble. People have never stopped building houses here in Texas. If you come to any major cities in Texas, you will find constructions everywhere and endless suburbs that stretch miles and miles. Everyone wonders how they can ever sell this many houses. Yet, people keep building countless houses and keep selling them. And we’ve never had a bubble. The prices of houses in Texas have been steadily going up all these years. The housing market here in Texas is as steady as you can ever imagine.

How do I know? I own several properties in Houston. If you don’t believe me, we have many Texas members here on this very forum. Ask them.

If the situations even within the US (California/New York vs. Texas) can vary so much, how do you expect a country like China that is so different behave exactly like only California and New York, but not Texas?
 
now I read
China ranked as top investment destination: AmCham South China
Xinhua| 2018-03-02 01:23:40
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The American Chamber of Commerce in South China Thursday said China was the top investment destination for its members, mostly foreign-funded multinational companies.

For 53.3 percent of 215 companies surveyed, China took the top spot in their global investment plans, according to the chamber's annual whitepaper on China's business environment and a special report on the state of business in south China.

Nearly three-quarters have a primary business focus on the Chinese market, while the rest focus on exports.

China remains popular for international investment due to its potential for global market growth, it said.

Roughly 90 percent reported being profitable with most of the rest expecting to make profit within two years. Meanwhile, nearly 70 percent said investment returns in China in 2017 were better than elsewhere.

"Foreign companies are cautiously more optimistic as the central and local governments are giving signals that they will open up the market and welcome more foreign investment," said AmCham South China President Harley Seyedin.

Seyedin applauded China's pledge to treat all businesses registered in China equally.

"We look forward to a more level playing field where we can all profit together," he said.

About 83 percent of participants ranked the business environment in south China as "good" to "very good."

The optimism seems to have affected reinvestment plans. The respondents said their combined budgeted reinvestment for 2018 was expected to rise by 11.8 percent year-on-year to 14 billion U.S. dollars in a bid to expand operations and grab larger market shares.

Also, the number of those who intended to transfer their China reinvestments to other markets in 2017 decreased by 24.4 percentage points.

For the first time, Guangzhou, capital of Guangdong Province, ranked as the most popular investment destination among 44 cities in China, followed by Shenzhen, Shanghai, and Beijing.

The Guangdong provincial government is more open toward foreign investment, particularly in attracting high-level talents, said the chamber, adding that the government introduced 10 measures in December to expand opening-up and attract foreign direct investment.

Most companies cited "increasing human resource costs,, "shortage of qualified talent," and "fierce local competition" as the top three business challenges in south China. China and the United States can achieve mutual benefits and win win through cooperation, according to the two documents.

Seyedin said businesses from China and the United States needed resources and markets from each other.

"China is transforming its economy into one driven by consumption, services and innovation and many industries in the two countries, particularly the services sector, can complement each other's advantages," he said.

With more than 2,300 members, AmCham South China provides dynamic, on-the-ground support for American and international companies doing business in south China.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Thanks Yura it is good article FDI is one of the most important gauge of China attractiveness as place for investment. China rank second after US as the most favorite investment destination.So much for the sky is falling theory
This is one way to clean up the debt problem of provincial and local government by delegate them more autonomy within limit. From the diplomat
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The Future of Fiscal Federalism in China
Is the central government ready to hand fiscal autonomy to local officials?

By Xinling Wang
March 02, 2018


Having pledged to
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in three years while slowing growth down, the Chinese government is increasingly driving home its deleveraging message. As the government seeks to cope with the political football of
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, the dynamics of the Chinese apparatus this year will shape the country’s prospects for fiscal federalism.

Fiscal federalism emerged in 2014 responding to soft budget constraints on local governments. While enabling the mobilization of financial means to achieve growth targets beyond fiscal capacity, the government’s strong control over financial institutions also blurs financial and fiscal boundaries. At the local level, high pressure to achieve growth (and thus ensure a promotion) have led local officials to borrow off the books or resort to
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to raise revenue, resulting in debt piles in the financial system.

The current administration has corrected some past wrongs while improving local finances, a shift sometimes described as “closing the back door while opening the front.” By lifting a 20-year ban on local government deficits, the revised
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, effective from 2015, legalizes local borrowing and puts it under central scrutiny. In addition to improving local fiscal
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, more significantly, the new law sets local finance on the track of fiscal federalism, where local authorities will take ultimate responsibility for their expenditures.

In transferring off-balance sheet debts back to balance sheet, the ongoing local government debt swaps also reduce local financial costs by replacing credit with cheaper bonds. After four years in operation, the
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announced in January 2018 the outstanding debts of 10.9 trillion yuan ($1.73 trillion) have been replaced, with another 1.73 trillion yuan ($274.63 billion) to finish by August 2018. Local governments are also issuing bonds to finance new projects, accumulating a total of 16.47 trillion yuan ($2.63 trillion) in debt by 2017.

Additionally, the government is developing more sustainable local taxes while reforming the tax-sharing system.
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for example, has been proposed to help wean local authorities off land finance. The consumption tax, currently levied by the central government, is in line to become a shared or local-only tax. The resources tax is still small but expected to grow; it brought 42.3 percent more revenue to local coffers in 2017 after a national move in 2016.

The central government is not only granting local authorities more financial means. It also is attempting to reduce local spending by redistributing local and central fiscal obligations. Categorizing spending items as local only, central only, and joint, the state aims to match local responsibility with fiscal capacity. Although recategorizing makes stronger sense in theory than in practice, progress is being made. The government in February 2018 released a second policy recognizing a range of joint expenditures in public services, following the release of a framework policy with a timetable in 2016.

As the government shifts its priority from growth speed to quality, there’s more room for changes. Now that they are being held
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for local debts beyond the end of their tenures, local officials are increasingly curbed from engaging in financial irregularities. As the government updates local official performance evaluations correspondingly, the shift in incentives will further promote financial prudence.

The biggest challenge to fiscal federalism comes from local government financing vehicles (LGFVs). The very symbol of China’s financial and fiscal distortion, LGFVs channel funds from financial markets to local projects. Since starting a cleanup of LGFVs in 2014, the government has been cracking down on them ever since. Denouncing their public entity status, the government ordered LGFVs to commercialize and distance themselves from local authorities. Financial institutions are also being told to think twice about taking part, with a warning that the state will not honor any debts occurring on LGFVs. Despite these efforts, LGFVs are still found
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in various ways.

2018 will be a critical year for LGFVs. On the one hand, the aggressive financial deleveraging drive has increased their costs, squeezing their space. Observers noted that coupon rates on LGFV debt grew by
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from late 2016 to mid-2017. Looking at another proxy indicator – the annual rate of return of trust funds, which was
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in June 2017 — their financial costs could be higher. On the other hand, the prevailing assumption is still that the local governments behind these vehicles will repay their debts. If the central government is truly resolved to end the practice, it may attempt to make an example out of some, increasing the chance for one or more LGFVs to default.

Finally, fiscal federalism assumes that local — not central — authorities control local finances. Local officials thus should issue bonds when needed and claim bankruptcy if it becomes inevitable. However, the central government, worried about careless local borrowing, is managing local debt by setting annual deficit ceilings. Despite the debate in 2014 on local government bankruptcy, the revised Budget Law falls short of addressing the issue.

Still, as the government strives toward rule-based governance, including in the fiscal domain, the
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to draw clearer lines between China’s financial and fiscal system could intensify in 2018, eventually leading to increased local fiscal autonomy.

Xinling Wang is a Beijing-based analyst, writing on China’s macroeconomic policy.
 
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