Chinese Economics Thread

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Farmers is a strategically important .... during peace time (like now), there is no issues buying grains from anywhere as long as you have money .... imagine during hard/war time where nobody wants to sell you any grain/food ? ...... your people would suffer badly in hunger

Thats why Japanese government subsidize their farmers in big way, it is important for Japan to still have farmers and producing food (even not competitive at all) for the population for strategic reason ... as Japan is only 39% food self sufficient .... it means over 60% of food need to be imported ... without subsidy, the number could go down to only 10%

China also want to maintain minimum 95% of food self sufficient ... at the moment the grain production in China is increasing every year, the number now may over 100%
I think Franklin's post was saying "subsidies and tax cuts act the same purpose to support domestic farmer, but tax cut may have the advantage in not causing other countries to raise voices in WTO".

That said, you are absolutely right in stating the reason. Everyone is doing it, EU and India are another two big ones. Nobody will allow anybody else to hold their bread.

Regarding the origin of the subsidy matter, the Chinese airliner, WTO is a valid regulative organization that every country is supposed to abide by its rules and rulings. BUT every country has a bottom line, that is the rules can not put a country's strategic interests in harms way. To a rice producing country rice is the life-death interest, to a huge country like China, independent aircraft industry is about life and death. Anyone who taunt WTO to threat China in the survival of that industry can go and "F" himself.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
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And some people think it's absurd when I tell them Obama plans to stop China from buying their own domestic airliner that will only be bought by Chinese airliners by filing a WTO complaint that's it's subsidized so that Boeing airliners don't face Chinese competition in China... Now he wants to raise the price of rice in China so that US farmers can sell in China.
hehe, I propose an answer to that complaint "China does not subsidize but cite National Security concern to officially forbid buying Boeing"?

This is a serious joke, I mean it, I am serious and I am joking. :cool: Tit-for-tat is nasty but it is the most effective and broadly used method for these kinds of issues.
 

PikeCowboy

Junior Member
WTO permits the relevant parties to enact counterforce tariffs to negate the relevant subsidies. I dont believe it forces unrelated importing parties to enforce any tariff.

IE if say mongolia choose to import chinese subsidized planes then they may but are not obligted to enforce triffs.

At this point I dont think US and EU will realistically purchase Comac anyway... Once Comac has matured China can then remove the subsidies and appeal any tariffs.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
How many countries are going to buy a Chinese airliner? The only ones are the those that couldn't afford to buy Boeing and Airbus. So taking action against the Chinese domestic airliner industry is all about preventing China from buying their own airliner because again China is the largest market for new airliners in the world. If China starts building their own passenger airliners, it will have a dire effect on Boeing and Airbus. China saved Boeing from bankruptcy in the 1990s. To charge subsidies is all about raising the price to a point the advantage of reputation is in their favor. But needing to destroy China's airliner production business before a plane is ever even sold is about making sure Chinese airliners never get off the ground to eventually surpass Boeing and Airbus' reputation advantage. Prejudice only goes so far. You already see how Western brand labels are losing their luster in China.
 

Franklin

Captain
The role that overseas Chinese especially those from Taiwan, Hongkong and ASEAN have played in the rise of China.

The Chinese diaspora’s role in the rise of China

In 1995, Australia’s Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade published a 350-page report on overseas Chinese business networks, calling them ‘one of the main forces driving the dynamic growth that characterises the region’. This interest reflected the economic clout of the then 50-odd million diaspora Chinese — living mostly in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau and Southeast Asia. In the early 1990s this diaspora was described as rivalling Japan as a business influence across Asia, with a collective wealth comparable to China’s GDP.

China’s stupendous growth since the mid-1990s has overshadowed the diaspora, but this only obscures its key enabling role in China’s rise. ‘Diaspora’ is of course a reductionist term that elides the variation among overseas Chinese in history, outlook and circumstances — most are not wealthy businessmen.

But those who are have played a pivotal role in developing China’s export industries, and mediating its economic integration with the region in ways that have allowed China to grow fast while retaining key features of its pre-1979 political economy. As such, the diaspora has effectively given China a resource unavailable to any previous rising power.

From the outset of China’s economic reform era, diaspora Chinese have provided the lion’s share of inward foreign investment. This has been concentrated in export-oriented sectors, driving growth of transnational production networks that today bind China’s neighbours to it through the world’s most integrated intraregional trading system. But this outcome was not pre-ordained. In the 1980s, China was still a capital-poor country, racked by political battles over the direction of economic reform.

During these uncertain years, diaspora investors were more persistent than their foreign competitors in China, relying on cultural and ancestral ties to offset political risk. They also directly shaped the reform debates: diaspora entrepreneurs served in the Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference and the National People’s Congress, cultivating relationships all the way up to Deng Xiaoping.

They influenced the conception and implementation of special economic zones (SEZs). And the technology and capital they sunk into these SEZs powered the take-off of China’s export industries, weighing the political scales in favour of continued liberalisation and opening.

Diaspora investment revitalised the Chinese private sector’s flagging ‘township and village’ enterprises, and underpinned a national balance of payments that allowed importation of capital goods to upgrade the wider economy. It more than compensated for the fall-off in Western investment during the post-Tiananmen years, when China’s growth dropped to levels creating fears of a recession. Billions in international loans to China had been frozen, and US presidential candidate Bill Clinton was promising to tie annual renewal of China’s ‘most favoured nation’ (MFN) trade status to progress on human rights.

By 1994, China’s economy had turned around to become the region’s most exciting growth story. US business interests pressured then president Clinton to revoke his own executive order and renew China’s MFN status, ensuring that the US market would become an engine of China’s rise.

China’s ability to grow at double digits while retaining a huge and inefficient state-owned sector, a closed capital account and an underdeveloped financial system was made possible by building an export machine based on foreign investment. Cumulative inward FDI from 1979 to 2000 equalled a third of the GDP in the latter year — over half this money came from Hong Kong alone, and over three quarters from East Asia, mostly from diaspora Chinese.

The foreign-invested export sector played a key role in shifting China’s economic position within the region. China went from a net capital importer with wages half the ASEAN average, to an economy that today has wage levels twice the ASEAN average, and is the largest growth source of regional FDI.

The importance of inbound FDI to China has dropped over the past two decades, with the foreign share of investment falling from 12 per cent in 1996 to 1 per cent in 2014. Yet nearly three quarters of this money still comes from Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore, with Taiwanese companies dominating China’s export production. As FDI into China from non-diaspora sources has grown, Hong Kong and Singapore have become intermediary hubs, leveraging their British-derived legal systems and separation from mainland Chinese jurisdiction.

As China’s economy evolves, the diaspora’s interactions with it are adapting. Hong Kong, Singapore and Taipei are now key to China’s ability to internationalise its currency while continuing to shelter its economy behind capital account controls, an importance that is likely to increase given uncertainty over London’s role post-Brexit. Singapore’s government and private firms are substantially involved in China’s push for more sustainable and sophisticated development, for example through the Tianjin Eco-City project and the Chongqing Connectivity Initiative.

Southeast Asia’s ethnic Chinese, who still dominate the private sector of every ASEAN country, are significant investors in China and middlemen for other actors’ business. For instance, an estimated 90 per cent of Indonesia’s commerce with China involves Chinese-Indonesians, despite being concentrated in sectors — infrastructure and natural resources — in which they are not major owners.

Another factor that is hard to quantify, but which some argue that China seeks to leverage, is the effect on opinion towards China of the high degree of Chinese ancestry in some ASEAN countries, particularly among elites. The most prominent example is Thailand’s royal family, but this legacy can manifest in some surprising ways.

Today the diaspora is increasingly augmented by first-generation migrants from the PRC, and China itself is moving towards a more knowledge intensive economy with ever denser cross-border interactions. The changing nature of overseas Chinese communities and their relationship to China is a subject that deserves further exploration, not least due to the growing political attention it is attracting.

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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
That is an excellent article that will refute the SB assertion that china owe its rise to Japan.
For the record Japan did give a loan in 8o's that were used to built key infrastructure . But Japan never play a pivotal role in China development.

When Yeltsin ex Russia Pm was asked why the Prestroika failed and Chinese reform succeed . He just has one word "Overseas Chinese"
This might be excuses and why to deflect criticism but it does have some shred of truth.

Overseas Chinese practically underwrite the Chinese reform without these infusion of capital, marketing savy and management skill, China reform won't get this far.

In 1976 DXP visit Singapore and the legend said that he drive around in Taxi by himself to see with his own eyes how a Chinese society can prosper.
He come impressed and said that China should learn from the world but most of all China should learn from Singapore.
When China open the SEZ in the 80's she formally as Singapore for help is setting up the framework for SEZ.

Singapore sent Dr Go Keng Swee the architect of every institution in Singapore from the ministry of education to finance, port and army, to China
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He come with the whole team and stay in China for 8 years helping the Chinese government with the planning and legal framework of open economy.

This is not just one shot relation Since then Singapore has trained 50000 Chinese government official
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and built Huge industrial park


But Hongkong, Taiwan and other country in south east Asia also contribute to China investment in the early year of reform.
This fact is little known outside Asia because it is purposely hidden because of the sensitive nature of China relation. The don't want to unduly alarmed the host country.
These Tycoon play significant role in the early year of China reform
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