Chinese Economics Thread

Yvrch

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yvrch, your theory of "saving" is #bad# is only true if you put all your saving (cash) under your pillow or bed, so the fund is idle and nobody else could utilise it.

But in modern time now, most of saving is in deposit or some kind of investment forms ... hence the capital is not idle and fully utilised by others

SamuraiBlue is correct!

If you have it in personal investment form, such as stocks, bonds, it is counted as consumption.
It is the idle money deposited in BoJ that Kuroda is charging a fee to the Japanese banks. So who is wrong?

Besides, the important indentifier here is "too much".
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
well, the BoJ would loan the "saving" somewhere, could be overseas as well.

If you really think that "personal investment form, such as stocks, bonds, it is counted as consumption" ... well, I don't think Chinese would have too much saving

Or do you really think the Japanese and Chinese still put their cash under the pillows?
 

Yvrch

Junior Member
Registered Member
well, the BoJ would loan the "saving" somewhere, could be overseas as well.

If you really think that "personal investment form, such as stocks, bonds, it is counted as consumption" ... well, I don't think Chinese would have too much saving

Or do you really think the Japanese and Chinese still put their cash under the pillows?

It's easy, you just need to find out what's BoJ mandate is and look at their balance sheet. Are they allowed to make overseas investment? You can find that out.

It's not what I really think. It is what it is and how it is done.

Under the pillow? That's rhetorical question I wouldn't bother to answer when you already see an example of oversavings in a mordern developed country.
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
It's easy, you just need to find out what's BoJ mandate is and look at their balance sheet. Are they allowed to make overseas investment? You can find that out.

It's not what I really think. It is what it is and how it is done.

BOJ is a central bank meaning individual citizens are not able to deposit money directly. Basically it's a bank for banks.
The minus interest rate is a national policy to force banks to provide more loans to people coming to the banks instead of depositing at BOJ since banks are all institution for profit so their mandate is to gain profit.

As for the money that is deposited at BOJ at the moment they are invested into Japan national bonds and foreign currencies and some into commodities like gold. It's basically the same around the world.
 

Yvrch

Junior Member
Registered Member
BOJ is a central bank meaning individual citizens are not able to deposit money directly. Basically it's a bank for banks.

Isn't it obvious? No need to say Pope is a Christian.


The minus interest rate is a national policy to force banks to provide more loans to people coming to the banks instead of depositing at BOJ since banks are all institution for profit so their mandate is to gain profit.

Mandate for the commercial banks? National policy?

Forcing the Japanese banks to lend more is what we've been talking about all along here. So what's the point?


As for the money that is deposited at BOJ at the moment they are invested into Japan national bonds and foreign currencies and some into commodities like gold. It's basically the same around the world.

Yes people are familiar with BoJ balance sheet and her lending facilities and how they work.
And yet, still no word on which funds BoJ is charging the fees to the bank?

I think I'll stop here. I can't say I enjoy talking to a wall.
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Yvrch

You really do not make sense.
BOJ balance sheet?
What is that going to prove?
For your information they are in the black, completely black ink from their inception. Do you know why?
Because they are the ones that literally print the money you XX.
The official name of the Yen is
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It basically the same all around the world with probably some exception like the US where there are no central national bank.
You make hair splitting arguments asking for completely irrelevant information and evades from your original thesis,

Here is the thing, too much savings are as bad as piling up debts, if not worse.
See Japan what too much savings can do to a nation, current account surpluses and capital outflows as savings go out overseas for better returns. Endless cycles of stimulus that keeps falling into negative areas.

Talking to a stone wall?
Yeah, sure....
 

dragoooons

New Member
Registered Member
I see here on SDF and pretty much anywhere else that capitalist ideology reigns strong. There is too much emphasis on analyzing the economy of China (or any country) from a capitalist perspective, this is unproductive and dangerous to China in the long run. The solutions to environmental degradation, wealth inequality, and a host of other issues lie not in capitalism for capitalism is the cause of these problems. Unfortunately even state officials are falling into the trap of viewing the world through capitalist ideology. Recently at the Plenum for the 13th 5-year plan, some high level officials were saying that they would sustain economic growth by lowering taxes on businesses. This is neoliberal trickle-down economics, it has not worked in any other country and will not work in China. The state and Communist Party needs to work hard and examine the economy from a Marxist perspective to solve the problems caused by inequality and environmental destruction. Here, I will do some of that hard work and thinking for China and present a Marxist solution to some (not all) of the ills facing China's economy.

One of the major goals of communism is having workers control the means for production, aka their workplace. It is the most readily achievable goal of communism. In fact it does not event require a revolution to take place. Worker cooperatives are one example of worker ownership that can be found in both socialist and capitalist societies. Thus, China should pick the low hanging fruit first and aim to achieve this goal first.

We must contrast a worker owned business with a standard capitalist business to see the benefits. In a typical business, power is structured hierarchically with ultimate authority given to a president or a board of directors. Decisions about running the business and distributing the profits of the business are made in an undemocratic manner. The work place, a place where we go for 30 to 50 year our lives- 5 days a week-8 hours a day, is run as an autocracy. One could argue that a worker can chose to find a different work place or start their own business but given that there is always unemployment, there is always a replacement to be found for a worker if he stands up against his master. This is why the relation between employer and employee is still one of force and coercion: we might not have slaves or serfs but workers are at a huge disadvantage when it comes to having their voices heard in a business.

Thus, the leadership of a business can make decisions that are beneficial to themselves (the top executives, shareholders, etc.) and harmful to the workers and/or the community the workers live in. For example, the company leaders can decide to move production oversees where labor is cheaper, or they could ignore environmental damage caused by their operations, both of these examples have occurred in the real world and we can easily see the negative impact these decisions have on workers and communities. Now consider a worker owned business. Would workers collectively decide to move manufacturing oversees for increased profits? Or would they decide to pollute the city they live in, potentially harming themselves and their children, for the sake of more profits? Most likely they would not. We can also see that the ultimate reason for making these harmful choices is the pursuit of profit; demanded by the company shareholders. A collectively owned business is not held hostage by shareholders who demand ever increasing profits each quarter and would therefore not need to engage in self-destructive actions to keep increasing profits. Instead of taking home a salary and then giving up the majority of profits to a few shareholders and executives, a worker owned business can keep all of the profits and democratically decide on how to distribute the money. They could choose to invest the profits funding other businesses, they could give the profits out as mortgages to themselves and charge a reasonable amount of interest, they could invest in their own pensions, or they could even spend money to bribe/lobby political leaders to make favorable policy for them. Regardless, there are numerous ways for the workers to invest the profits of their labor in a way that benefits themselves, their community, and ensures a return on said investment.

The model presented here is based on the work of Dr. Richard D. Wolff and designed in the context of the social and economic conditions found in the United States, the leadership of the Labour Party in the UK have also proposed a related solution of worker ownership. China should not fall behind on the path towards communism, much less fall behind to capitalist nations. Still this model will no doubt require adjustment to be relevant to workers in China, but it is clear that promoting worker ownership will help solve many of the challenges facing Chinese society (see above paragraph) and consistent with the principles of communism. Furthermore it is also compatible with "reform and opening up" since the state is trying to promote more free enterprises and 简政放权 (give more power to people/reduce overbearing government). Why not promote worker owned businesses rather than your typical joint stock companies? Why not allow economic democracy? This is the vanguard of Marxist philosophy and the Chinese government and people need to embrace it.
 

Yvrch

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yvrch

You really do not make sense.
BOJ balance sheet?
What is that going to prove?
For your information they are in the black, completely black ink from their inception. Do you know why?
Because they are the ones that literally print the money you XX.

Dude , balance sheet in the black? Puhlease.
You sure since their inception?

Yeah, Pope is Catholic. Water is wet. I agree.

The official name of the Yen is
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Who cares? All we need is three letter ISO code to make money on their sufferings. Whipsaws! Diamond bottoms! Good times.

Talking to a stone wall?
Yeah, sure....

I might as well be watching the paint dry on the wall.
 

Daniel707

Junior Member
Registered Member
China’s dramatic shift to a digital economy
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24 MAR, 5:37 PM
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Online shopping carts are transforming the face of China’s economy, changing supply chains and putting pricing power in the hands of its 1.37 billion consumers.

China’s policymakers have promoted their policy of ‘internet-Plus’ to spearhead economic reform and foster the development of a consumption-led economy over the export-led growth of the past.

The country’s shoppers, already among the most internet savvy in the world, are using new shopping and payment gateways via Wechat, Alibaba and Taobao. This is levelling the playing field for suppliers, who now meet buyers online in an e-commerce market that has been growing rapidly.

For decades, mainland China’s economic expansion was powered by low-value-added manufacturing: cheap toys, shoes and textiles that were exported to the rest of the world. Those days are increasingly fading into the past and the focus now is on making the country’s giant economy more productive, innovative and market-oriented.

Chinese consumers have adapted to the digital world with lightning speed.


Just a decade ago, there were fewer than 100 million internet users in mainland China, and the penetration rate was just 7 per cent. Now, the penetration rate has reached nearly 50 per cent, with some 667 million internet users as of June 2015. These consumers are highly connected, mobile, digitally savvy and globally minded.

The country is now the world’s largest e-commerce market: online retail sales in mainland China totalled 3.877 trillion yuan ($US590bn) in 2015, up 33.3 per cent from a year earlier, according to official data.

On November 11, 2015, during the annual shopping bonanza on “Singles Day”, Alibaba’s online sales soared to a record 91bn yuan ($US14bn), beating expectations and easily topping the amount shoppers in the US spent during the multi-day sales spike around the thanksgiving holiday.

The shift to a digital economy is also changing customers’ use of financial tools like e-wallets, e-payment and touch-pay systems. This enhances the digital ecosystem and helps it to reach the consumer masses.

Private-sector companies have also embraced the digital age. Companies like Alibaba, Tencent, Baidu, e-tailer JD.com and travel websites Ctrip and Qunar have given rise to thriving social networks and transformed the way Chinese buy movie tickets and book hotels, exchange shopping tips and compare prices.

They have also enabled Chinese shoppers — be they in Beijing, Shanghai or rural Inner Mongolia — to spend, by putting them within a mouse-click or phone-swipe of goods from all over the world.

Crucially, this eager embrace of the internet has injected more market forces, transparency and competition into the mainland Chinese economy, ensuring that quality, price, efficiency and service are rewarded more highly than ever before.

In other words, it is helping to make China’s economy become more “digital”.

The real impact will come if these market forces take root across all parts of the economy — in particular, the massive state-owned sector.

Mainland China’s roughly 150,000 state-owned enterprises (SOEs) employ more than 30 million people, and contribute nearly a third of China’s GDP. Their actions have a big impact on the speed and direction of the economic rebalancing and upgrading that Beijing is aiming to bring about.

Not all SOEs have been quick to harness the power of the internet. However, those that do — perhaps by partnering with existing internet companies — can reap substantial benefits. Digital tools can help them improve their sourcing, sales and logistics systems; streamline their often inefficient operations; engage with customers via social media; identify and track market trends and boost their marketing, research and innovation capabilities.

China e-commerce sales are expected to top $US1.5 trillion by 2018, by which time nearly 30 per cent of all retail sales in the country will be done online, according to a recent study by eMarketer. Reaching these shoppers, and getting them to click “buy now”, will be increasingly important for private-sector and state-owned enterprises alike.

Chinese authorities have seen the successes in the private sector and are now actively encouraging change in the state-owned sector.

In March last year, Premier Li Keqiang announced the “internet Plus” initiative. This aims to encourage China’s manufacturers to deploy mobile internet, cloud computing, “Big Data” analysis and other tools, and to promote the development of internet banking, mass entrepreneurship and innovation. It also aims to support higher-tech manufacturing in agriculture, energy, finance, public services, logistics, e-commerce, traffic, biology and artificial intelligence.

China spent 430bn yuan in 2015 to beef up the nationwide internet system. Another 700bn yuan will be spent on this effort in 2016 and 2017, and an additional 140bn yuan will be invested in improving rural internet connectivity until 2020.

Putting these policies in place could help provide momentum for China in the years ahead. The internet and its related technologies will change the nature of growth, particularly as labour costs increase and the country’s population ages. They will create new markets for innovative products and services. And they will generate jobs for workers with digital and hi-tech skills.

In the long term, China’s digital economy will help its international ambitions. Some of its technology companies are now among the largest in the world. They can leverage their experiences from the dynamic home market and export their technological successes to the rest of the world.

The heavy capital investment and labour force expansion that fuelled China’s rise over the past three decades cannot be sustained indefinitely. The economy’s embrace of the internet can ultimately support China’s goal of creating a more sustainable “digital economy”. China’s policymakers, and the country’s mouse-clicking and phone-swiping shoppers, are helping to bring that change about.

Helen Wong is chief executive, Greater China, HSBC

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