Chinese Economics Thread

flyzies

Junior Member
Indeed, I think world economists really need to make a clear distinction between consumption driven debt and investment driven debt.

If you borrow to consume (be it private or government), what you are doing is bring forward consumption from the future to spend more now at the expense of your future spending and consumption power. That is wholly unsustainable and highly problematic.

Investment driven debt is very different because that money is used to finance investments, which if made wisely, will yield an economic return. Again, if invested right, that return on investment should not only cover the finance costs (interest payments) but also cover some of the principle (original amount borrowed) such that the investment effectively pays for itself throughout the loan repayment period, and then generates you a net profit after the loan has been fully paid off. That's not only sustainable, but profitable.

Western governments and consumers typically borrow to consume, either on credit card financed consumer goods for the individual, or on generous social welfare and healthcare costs for the government (bribe to voters).

China, on the other hand, be it at individual or governmental level, typically borrows to finance investment.

This is why I always scoff when western economic pundits selfishly pontificate about China needing to switch to a consumer driven economy.

That's peddling China the same rotten medicine that is hobbling their own home economies!

What they really want is to take China's nest egg for themselves! For China to go bananas buying up all the cutting edge financial products, healthcare and other non-tangible assets and services they are world leaders at providing, so their home economies can cash in enough to pay off their own debts and then make China pay them interests for all time so they can continue to live well beyond their means.

They are not advocating what is best for China, but trying to trick and pressure China into diving under the bus to give themselves a tiny glimmer of hope of being able to dig themselves out of their own hole by taking China's hard earned savings hand over fist as fast as they can.

Fortunately, China's leaders are technocrats and are smart enough to easily see through all the mass market BS.

The actual key to switching from an investment to a consumption driven economy is actually wealth, not spending habits.

Trying to prematurely force the economy into a consumer driven economy by getting people into the bad habit of spending tomorrow's money today is a recipe for disaster.

The only way a sustainable transition can occur is if the people and the economy are wealthy and high earning enough that their regular, sustainable spending is enough to generate a market demand big enough to drive your economy.

As such, a consumer driven economic is actually an indicator of the power of your economy, rather than being a tool to make your economy more powerful.

That is a simple, but fundamental rule that a surprising number of western economic media pundits simple do not appear to be able to grasp.

The key to getting to that state is, ironically, something they now label as a 'weakness' and 'problem' for the Chinese economy - rising wages.

While it is true that at the start of economy development, rock bottom wages is a boon to the economy as it gives them price competitive advantages, that's not a sustainable model of economy development unless one is content to forever sit at the very bottom of the economic food chain and make basic cheap goods for tiny profits.

Moving up the value chain is the key towards economic advancement and ultimately achieving a consumption driven economy, and that is precisely what China is doing. And how do you move up the value chain? Well with investment of course!

As any first year economics student can tell you, new developing economies typically have one or both of the two key advantages that can help them get going. Those are the natural resources endowment, and human resources endowment.

New developing economies can generate a lot of income fairly quickly, easily and cheaply by exploiting its untapped natural resources, and the low cost of its labour.

In my view, countries get stuck in the so-called middle income trap because they fail to make the most of this initial windfall to invest and move up the value chain fast enough or for long enough by acquiring bad economic habits because their economists and leaders did not grasp the fundamental rule I mentioned earlier.

They were too quick to start enjoying the early fruits of their labour and thought that by promoting consumption, they would be able to magically arrive at the holly grail of a consumption driven economy before they had acquired the wealth and spending power critical mass to make a consumption based economy viable.

Rather than continue to invest to move up the value chain and grow wages (spending power), they instead started to consume more, and lost momentum and its earlier competitive advantage as advanced, consumption driven economies continued to invest, innovate and move up the value chain, while newer emerging economics took much of the low cost work they originally relied upon, but which are now not competitive in because of the raised wages and living standards of its people.

If you look at average income per head, you can see that China is still some way off from having the spending power to be sure of breaking into the consumption driving economic club despite the size of its population.

OTOH, after all those decades of break-neck investment, the choicest investment opportunities had already been taken, and increasingly, yields are falling on new investment as the country nears investment saturation. At the same time, there western economies are tightening their belts as a result of their own economic chickens coming home to roost.

That is where China finds itself currently.

So what is the solution? The one road one belt initiative backed up by the newly created AIIB.

China's economy is geared towards, and supremely effective at massed infrastructure projects. So it is going to create a vast new market and invest infrastructure abroad.

Yields on those new, basic investments are going to be vastly superior to what can now be achieved in China. And the best thing is that all the equipment, labour and products are already fully developed.

That means there is going to be little to no R&D overhead associated with those projects, which in turn means more profits and/or more competitive pricing.

That foreign infrastructure investment income is going to finance Chinese firms to continue moving up the value chain as it upgrades China's existing infrastructure back at home. In doing so, they are developing the technologies, tools and procedures that can be exported at a later date to upgrade the infrastructure it is building abroad.

All that infrastructure investment in neighbouring countries should also generate economic growth in those countries, and that in turn creates new demand and markets, which are already supremely well connected to China and its vast marketplace.

It's a brilliant strategy the more you think about it. China would effectively be corning much of that new market it is creating, since all the transport links lead to China first and foremost. That's going to immediately give its firms a cost and response time advantage that other foreign competitors would find hard to compete with and not break any trade rules.

Once connected to the Middle East, that will help to secure China's energy supplies from the threat of naval blockade. Once connected to Europe, that opens up the way for vastly reduced shipping costs and transport times to one of its primary markets. Later they can connect Africa and have a whole continent to sell infrastructure to, tap resources and create new customers.

That's enough work to keep China busy for the next 50 years at least. By which time Chinese GDP would be several times the size of America's and per capita income should be comparable or even significantly higher depending on how well growth is sustained. By that time, China would have long since transitioned to a consumption based economy without really needing to change any of its domestic spending patterns and habits.

We are seeing some rough times now, but once the big projects starts kicking off in central Asia, the good times will start to roll again for China.

Brilliant post! I tried many times to 'like' it...but it seems my like button is broken
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
If you borrow to consume (be it private or government), what you are doing is bring forward consumption from the future to spend more now at the expense of your future spending and consumption power. That is wholly unsustainable and highly problematic.

Investment driven debt is very different because that money is used to finance investments, which if made wisely, will yield an economic return. Again, if invested right, that return on investment should not only cover the finance costs (interest payments) but also cover some of the principle (original amount borrowed) such that the investment effectively pays for itself throughout the loan repayment period, and then generates you a net profit after the loan has been fully paid off. That's not only sustainable, but profitable.

You'll need to define it more since corporate investment could be to update their production line which is also by your definition borrowing money for consumption. Same with government and even private cases.
On investment side it could also mean money game in which you really should not borrow money to participate since it bears the possibility of the investment going sour in which case you have no way to pay back the debt. Acquisition of condos purely for investment falls in this category.
 
Brilliant post! I tried many times to 'like' it...but it seems my like button is broken
yeah as brilliant as the article, which I happened to see this week, from some journal for Czechoslovak youth from the beginning of 1960s, also predicting 50 years ahead (the bright future of course, what else ... capitalist countries took over by that time)
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
There are a lot of criticism about the abject state of environment in China by western press. rightly so. But that is the price one pay for headlong rush into industrialization. How else can a poor country power their industry.? Coal is the the cheapest source of fuel in China and widely available.
But as the Kuznet graph
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as the country get richer, she will devote more resource to mitigate the environment degradation due to industrialization as this article show. China make a good progress on improving the environment

China renewable energy growth soars whilst coal use declines
China’s solar and wind energy capacity increased by 74% and 34%, respectively, in 2015, while coal consumption dropped by 3.7%

PHO-10Jan21-200301.jpg


China’s National Bureau of Statistics released figures for 2015 this week, and officials believe that the country’s current growth path will allow them to soon surpass their carbon emissions targets. Specifically, China broke two new records in 2015, installing a record 32.5% of wind in 2015, and a record 18.3 GW of solar in 2015 — both of which were higher than initial estimates.

“The latest figures confirm China’s record-breaking shift toward renewable power and away from coal,”
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, Director of Energy Finance Studies at the Institute for Energy Economics and Financial Analysis (IEEFA). “Solar and wind continue to be the big winners, as illustrated by a 73.7% increase in grid-connected solar generation capacity. Declining consumption coupled with an over-abundance of domestic supply, meaning coal imports into China were particularly badly hit, dropping 30.4% yoy.”

Timothy Buckley also makes note of just how fast global electricity markets are transforming. Despite China’s confirmed figures being largely in line with initial estimates, they nevertheless highlight that global electricity markets “are transforming a great deal faster than anyone actually expected.”

The transformation is nothing without the corresponding decrease in fossil fuels, and China seems to be making strong headway towards its goals to decrease its coal usage and import. 2015 saw coal consumption decline 3.7%, year-over-year, and net coal imports dropped a much more significant 30.4% year-over-year, down to 198.7 million tonnes. This trend has already been seen to continue into 2016, with January’s net coal imports dropping by 11.6% year-over-year.

“IEEFA forecasts that China will install an additional 22 GW of wind, 16GW of new hydro, another 6GW of nuclear, and 18GW of solar (60% utility scale, 40% distributed rooftop solar) in 2016,” explained Buckley. “With electricity demand forecast to grow by 3.0-3.5% yoy in 2016, this 62GW of additional zero carbon electricity capacity will be more than sufficient to meet total electricity demand growth, such that coal consumption is forecast to fall again in 2016.”

Published: 07 Mar 2016
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Can you imagine there are articles out there angry at China making inroads against pollution especially ahead of commitments made at the Paris Climate Summit. Sounds like some are angry expecting China to fail therefore they don't have to keep their commitments.
 

no_name

Colonel
Is coal a state owned resource? Because I have a feeling that if it is not used for power generation and industry, the coal mines are simply going to sell more of them to poorer household and civilian/private sector to power their fuel/energy needs, which could produce even dirtier pollution. So might as well make use of it to spur economic/technological development and make way to transitioning to cleaner energy paradigm faster.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Is coal a state owned resource? Because I have a feeling that if it is not used for power generation and industry, the coal mines are simply going to sell more of them to poorer household and civilian/private sector to power their fuel/energy needs, which could produce even dirtier pollution. So might as well make use of it to spur economic/technological development and make way to transitioning to cleaner energy paradigm faster.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. There are plenty of private-owned coal mines in Shanxi responsible for the influx of "Tuhao" in China.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
China should just scrapped the hukou system . They are discriminatory and unfair to the country folk. And has outlive its usefulness.I can understand in the early days they try to prevent people from inundating city and create slum which china doesn't have. But now with enough housing and improving services they are leftover from Mao era. About time they give break to the people who really built China. But I am not pessimistic as this author Given the chance the country folk will settle in the city
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BEIJING — Migrant workers are the unsung heroes of China’s economic miracle. Numbering more than 270 million, they abandon their impoverished farms and villages to move to the cities, where they run the factories and build the highways and high-rises that have made China’s growth the envy of the world.

Now, as China’s economy slows, the country’s leaders have a new mission for them: Buy homes.

China is looking for ways to get migrant workers to help buy up a huge glut of unsold homes that is dragging down the country’s economic growth. Chinese leaders have eased taxes and down payment requirements. They are taking new steps to offer mortgages. And they have eased the tough laws that traditionally have kept migrant workers from putting down roots in big cities.

The leaders want to turn people like Hong Qiwen into home buyers. Mr. Hong, 32, runs a small pastry shop in Xi’an, a city in Shaanxi Province in the country’s north. The province has said it will offer mortgages and other help as part of a $9.1 billion lending push to get people — especially migrants — to buy homes.

Photo
10CHINAHOME-web2-articleLarge.jpg


Residential buildings for sale in Shijiazhuang, capital of north China’s Hebei Province, last month. Credit Zhu Xudong/Xinhua, via Getty Images
But Mr. Hong, a father of two young children who is from a rural area in China’s east, represents the challenge to China’s effort. He has no plans to buy one in Xi’an. “I am like a fallen leaf that will eventually return to the roots,” he said, invoking a Chinese proverb.

The housing glut is one of the biggest drags on China’s economy, and therefore one of the major drags on global growth. The empty homes have discouraged further investment in real estate, idling cranes and construction workers around the country.

Investment in Chinese real estate reached nearly $1.5 trillion last year, according to official figures. Economists say the property sector’s impact on the economy is even greater when related industries like steel and furniture-making are included. But growth has come to a standstill. After growing by double-digit percentage rates for more than a decade, Chinese real estate investment last year grew just 1 percent.

The precise size of the housing glut is unclear. China nationally tracks square meters available for sale. Government data shows that the space in unsold residential units reached a high last year at 452 million square meters, more than twice as much as in 2011 and 130 times the size of Central Park in New York. (A square meter is a little less than 11 square feet.) Unlike typical homes in the United States, which are generally single-family houses, the typical Chinese home is an apartment in a residential complex.

The real housing overcapacity may be more serious than official figures show. “If we take into account the land that hasn’t started construction or newly started projects, the pressure from overcapacity will be greater,” said Yan Yuejin, a property analyst at E-House R&D Institute in Shanghai.

The problem stems from China’s lending-and-spending binge eight years ago to stave off the effects of the global financial crisis. With $611 billion in spending, China rekindled growth but added to its surfeit of steel mills, cement kilns and glass factories — as well as empty homes. The glut was further fueled by Chinese investors looking for a place to park their wealth.

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The problem is most acute in China’s less developed cities. Rapid increases in home prices persist in wealthier cities such as Beijing, Shanghai and the southern manufacturing mecca of Shenzhen, and analysts still warn of the potential for bubbles.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
(continue)
For now, Chinese leaders seem mostly preoccupied with the backlog of unsold homes. President Xi Jinping was quoted in November as saying that “destocking the property market” and “promoting the sustained development of the sector” were important tasks for the coming year. Changjiang Daily, an official newspaper in the central city of Wuhan, likened the task of unloading vacant homes to “a battle of annihilation.”

Government ministries have responded with a number of measures, such as reducing the deed tax and lowering requirements for down payments. The pressure is on: One Chinese provincial government has warned county- and city-level officials that they will be “held accountable” if they fail, without specifying the penalties.

Part of the solution, officials believe, lies with China’s hundreds of millions of migrant workers. Many are from the countryside and lack an urban hukou — the household registration that provides access to social services such as subsidized health care and state schools and the right to buy a home. Originally, that system was designed to keep rural workers from flooding Chinese cities.

Now, provincial governments are encouraging the workers to stay, and many are focusing on initiatives tailored to migrants. In the central province of Henan, the government will subsidize city home purchases by migrant workers and give them easier access to an urban hukou. In Wuhu, in Anhui Province, the authorities have promised easy commercial bank loans to migrant workers.

The policies are aimed at people like He Yong, 28, a driver from a village in Jilin Province, which borders North Korea and Russia. He hopes someday to get married, settle down in the nearby city of Hunchun — population 250,000 — and set up his own business. The policies to encourage that have not been introduced in his part of the country yet, but he hopes to take advantage of them.

“Here no one wants to marry you and live in the village,” Mr. He said. “We all want to get a place in the city some day. Being a farmer is tiring and doesn’t make much money.”

Still, the effort could prove to be tough. Hu Xingdou, an economics professor at the Beijing Institute of Technology, said rural residents hesitated to move into cities because rural services were improving, and they worried about compensation for their land and a lack of jobs in less developed cities.

Mr. Hong, owner of the pastry shop in Xi’an, currently rents an apartment in Xi’an, but he doesn’t plan to stay. Pollution and traffic make city life unpalatable, he said, adding that he could probably buy a modest home in a small city if he wanted to. Eventually, he said, he will probably settle down back in rural Jiangxi.

“I dreamed about city life when I was young, because many of the villagers who went there bragged about the city, which they said was full of new things,” he said. “But once I began working in cities, I missed home a lot and was not entirely used to the city way of life.”
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Great Post below on Chinese investment

But I would add the following.

For a lower-income economy, infrastructure investment allows the economy to address basic bottlenecks that prevent economic activity to take place. However, we've seen that this only takes an economy to middle-income status.

But the examples of Japan and Korea have demonstrated that in order to move up the value chain from middle-income to high-income, it requires an economy to develop its own high technology industries. But note that the rest of the economy can still be relatively inefficient and that it can still undertake wasteful infrastructure investment, as per the Japanese and Korean experiences.

On this measure, China is already devoting 2.1% of GDP on R&D spending, which is an exceptionally high figure for a developing country, as everyone else maxes out at half that level.

We've seen the next 5 year plan target an increase to 2.5%, which compares favourably with:

Germany: 2.8%
US: 2.7%
France: 2.2%
UK: 1.7%

Also remember that wasteful investment can actually be seen as a form of consumption.

Indeed, I think world economists really need to make a clear distinction between consumption driven debt and investment driven debt.

If you borrow to consume (be it private or government), what you are doing is bring forward consumption from the future to spend more now at the expense of your future spending and consumption power. That is wholly unsustainable and highly problematic.

Investment driven debt is very different because that money is used to finance investments, which if made wisely, will yield an economic return. Again, if invested right, that return on investment should not only cover the finance costs (interest payments) but also cover some of the principle (original amount borrowed) such that the investment effectively pays for itself throughout the loan repayment period, and then generates you a net profit after the loan has been fully paid off. That's not only sustainable, but profitable.

Western governments and consumers typically borrow to consume, either on credit card financed consumer goods for the individual, or on generous social welfare and healthcare costs for the government (bribe to voters).

China, on the other hand, be it at individual or governmental level, typically borrows to finance investment.

This is why I always scoff when western economic pundits selfishly pontificate about China needing to switch to a consumer driven economy.

That's peddling China the same rotten medicine that is hobbling their own home economies!

What they really want is to take China's nest egg for themselves! For China to go bananas buying up all the cutting edge financial products, healthcare and other non-tangible assets and services they are world leaders at providing, so their home economies can cash in enough to pay off their own debts and then make China pay them interests for all time so they can continue to live well beyond their means.

They are not advocating what is best for China, but trying to trick and pressure China into diving under the bus to give themselves a tiny glimmer of hope of being able to dig themselves out of their own hole by taking China's hard earned savings hand over fist as fast as they can.

Fortunately, China's leaders are technocrats and are smart enough to easily see through all the mass market BS.

The actual key to switching from an investment to a consumption driven economy is actually wealth, not spending habits.

Trying to prematurely force the economy into a consumer driven economy by getting people into the bad habit of spending tomorrow's money today is a recipe for disaster.

The only way a sustainable transition can occur is if the people and the economy are wealthy and high earning enough that their regular, sustainable spending is enough to generate a market demand big enough to drive your economy.

As such, a consumer driven economic is actually an indicator of the power of your economy, rather than being a tool to make your economy more powerful.

That is a simple, but fundamental rule that a surprising number of western economic media pundits simple do not appear to be able to grasp.

The key to getting to that state is, ironically, something they now label as a 'weakness' and 'problem' for the Chinese economy - rising wages.

While it is true that at the start of economy development, rock bottom wages is a boon to the economy as it gives them price competitive advantages, that's not a sustainable model of economy development unless one is content to forever sit at the very bottom of the economic food chain and make basic cheap goods for tiny profits.

Moving up the value chain is the key towards economic advancement and ultimately achieving a consumption driven economy, and that is precisely what China is doing. And how do you move up the value chain? Well with investment of course!

As any first year economics student can tell you, new developing economies typically have one or both of the two key advantages that can help them get going. Those are the natural resources endowment, and human resources endowment.

New developing economies can generate a lot of income fairly quickly, easily and cheaply by exploiting its untapped natural resources, and the low cost of its labour.

In my view, countries get stuck in the so-called middle income trap because they fail to make the most of this initial windfall to invest and move up the value chain fast enough or for long enough by acquiring bad economic habits because their economists and leaders did not grasp the fundamental rule I mentioned earlier.

They were too quick to start enjoying the early fruits of their labour and thought that by promoting consumption, they would be able to magically arrive at the holly grail of a consumption driven economy before they had acquired the wealth and spending power critical mass to make a consumption based economy viable.

Rather than continue to invest to move up the value chain and grow wages (spending power), they instead started to consume more, and lost momentum and its earlier competitive advantage as advanced, consumption driven economies continued to invest, innovate and move up the value chain, while newer emerging economics took much of the low cost work they originally relied upon, but which are now not competitive in because of the raised wages and living standards of its people.

If you look at average income per head, you can see that China is still some way off from having the spending power to be sure of breaking into the consumption driving economic club despite the size of its population.

OTOH, after all those decades of break-neck investment, the choicest investment opportunities had already been taken, and increasingly, yields are falling on new investment as the country nears investment saturation. At the same time, there western economies are tightening their belts as a result of their own economic chickens coming home to roost.

That is where China finds itself currently.

So what is the solution? The one road one belt initiative backed up by the newly created AIIB.

China's economy is geared towards, and supremely effective at massed infrastructure projects. So it is going to create a vast new market and invest infrastructure abroad.

Yields on those new, basic investments are going to be vastly superior to what can now be achieved in China. And the best thing is that all the equipment, labour and products are already fully developed.

That means there is going to be little to no R&D overhead associated with those projects, which in turn means more profits and/or more competitive pricing.

That foreign infrastructure investment income is going to finance Chinese firms to continue moving up the value chain as it upgrades China's existing infrastructure back at home. In doing so, they are developing the technologies, tools and procedures that can be exported at a later date to upgrade the infrastructure it is building abroad.

All that infrastructure investment in neighbouring countries should also generate economic growth in those countries, and that in turn creates new demand and markets, which are already supremely well connected to China and its vast marketplace.

It's a brilliant strategy the more you think about it. China would effectively be corning much of that new market it is creating, since all the transport links lead to China first and foremost. That's going to immediately give its firms a cost and response time advantage that other foreign competitors would find hard to compete with and not break any trade rules.

Once connected to the Middle East, that will help to secure China's energy supplies from the threat of naval blockade. Once connected to Europe, that opens up the way for vastly reduced shipping costs and transport times to one of its primary markets. Later they can connect Africa and have a whole continent to sell infrastructure to, tap resources and create new customers.

That's enough work to keep China busy for the next 50 years at least. By which time Chinese GDP would be several times the size of America's and per capita income should be comparable or even significantly higher depending on how well growth is sustained. By that time, China would have long since transitioned to a consumption based economy without really needing to change any of its domestic spending patterns and habits.

We are seeing some rough times now, but once the big projects starts kicking off in central Asia, the good times will start to roll again for China.

#5330plawolf, Tuesday at 10:20 AM
 
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