Chinese Economics Thread

Equation

Lieutenant General
IMO gold will always be THE Currency of the world, not Bitcoins.

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MARKETS/COMMODITIES REPORTER

China has been making it very clear that it wants more control over the global gold market, but it’ll have to go through New York and London first.

“Given that China is the epicenter of the physical gold market, it does make sense that the Chinese government would want its physical Shanghai gold market to supplant the Comex derivative market (and others) as the primary global price-setting mechanism,” said Anthem Blanchard, chief executive officer of online precious-metal retailer Anthem Vault.

China is, after all, the world’s largest producer and one of the biggest buyers of the metal, often running neck and neck with India as the globe’s top consumer.

Last month, the
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to join the group of lenders that set the London Bullion Market Association’s gold price benchmark, and two more Chinese banks are reportedly working to become members.

“This will allow Chinese banks to participate in the gold market on a global basis,” said Julian Phillips, founder of and contributor to GoldForecaster.com.

The
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replaced the historic London Gold Fix
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.

New York and London have generally been the hubs for setting gold prices. But with “so little gold going through Comex in physical terms, this is a distortion of demand and supply as it only reflects the trading picture of speculators in New York,” said Phillips. He noted that only 5% of contracts are delivered on Comex after notice has been given of this intention.

‘Control over the gold price is exercised in New York and London, leaving China at the mercy of those two centers.’
Julian Phillips, GoldForecaster.com
“Control over the gold price is exercised in New York and London, leaving China at the mercy of those two centers,” he said.

So despite China’s huge presence in the physical market, it hasn’t had much control over the global gold price.

Having New York and London as the price-setting locations has “kept gold prices well below the level of demand and supply should reflect,” Phillips said. China does not want an uncontrolled gold price, but it also “does not want the U.S./U.K. to have control over this market if they are minor players.”

On Thursday, August gold futures
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settled at
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in New York, and in London, the afternoon LBMA Gold Price was $1,164.25.


What makes China’s stock market unique?
(1:51)
The Chinese stock market behaves differently from most other big markets in the world in normal times. During a big selloff, things can get really weird. Photo: Getty Images.

Gold prices haven’t found much support in the wake of
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, but Blanchard said that if Chinese stock investors become “increasingly disillusioned” about losses in the country’s stock market, gold prices could “benefit greatly.”

Meanwhile, China’s greater presence in the world gold market could also help the country’s currency.

China can “promote yuan
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trading in gold, with Chinese banks taking up stock and selling it to other buyers in yuan,” Phillips said. Add that to a yuan gold “fix” price in Shanghai, expected before the end of the year and you will have a market “that is not distorted by the banks, their proprietary trading, or control of the gold distribution system globally.”

Instead, “China will hold these reins,” he said.

In the end, it may be really about China operating independently of the U.S. financially, Phillips said.

Gold isn’t just a commodity, it is “money” and recognized by all global central banks as such, he said.

To have a global multi-currency system, the expectation is that gold will act in a pivotal role alongside the U.S. dollar
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sterling
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the yen
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and Swiss franc
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—and, this year, the yuan, he said.

He believes the dollar will lose a lot of its influence in global trade—“so it is not just about gold for China, it is a new monetary system relatively independent of the U.S. and the dollar.”

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Blackstone

Brigadier
He thinks China will do a Japan, whereas I think China will do an America.
The odd thing about China is it's an outlier on many conventional social-economic wisdom. Some examples:

Conventional Wisdom- centralized planning produces too much inefficiencies and retards national growth.
Empirical Evidence- using centralized planning for 30 years, China produced the fastest sustained economic growth in human history.

Conventional Wisdom- single party rule produces too much corruption, which depress economic development, and impoverish the masses.
Empirical Evidence- corruption rose over three decades to heights not seen since the worst of Qing Empire, but China got richer and richer and not poorer and poorer.

Conventional Wisdom- authoritarian governments oppresses its citizens and cause widespread resentment against the elites.
Empirical Evidence- a poll by Harvard University showed Beijing enjoys >70% popular support; provincial governments about 60% support, county and local 45%-55% support.

Conventional Wisdom- as nations become more wealthy and produce sizable middle class, they'd want democracy.
Empirical Evidence- the CCP has done well co-opting the rising middle class by developing feedback systems to detect major grievances and address them before they get out of control.

I don't believe corruption is good for any country nor do I believe single-party rule is good (I live in a single-party State, and I want it voted out of power), but I think China is opposite on so many generally accepted wisdom, it behooves the rest of the world to take a closer look and see what is so different about the Middle Kingdom.
 
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Yvrch

Junior Member
Registered Member
Here since everyone is just beating around the bushes with someone saying that the little people will not get hurt. Here is an article that discribes what really pulled the triger.



I am not pluck anything out of thin air. I have been following it and looking at the mechanism which is written above. The PRC government relaxed various regulations that triggered an artifical rise in the stock market resulting to a stock bubble that had burst. Like I said it is going to spill over to other investment schemes especially the shadow banking system that borrow money directly from individuals placing higher interests then normal banking.

In an economy of China's breadth and size, you can find many supporting cases readily available for diagonally opposite extreme views.
What you might be missing is hidden undercurrents of shifting economic model.
All headline print about China economy in next ten years can be explained in three basic ideas:
interest rate, exchange rate and open capital account.
China is trying to get them right, both timing and sequence wise.
This stock crash is part of this sequence.
 

Brumby

Major
IMO gold will always be THE Currency of the world, not Bitcoins.



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This article is mind blowing because it is such a disconnect to the way a free market works. Pricing in an efficient market is merely a function of supply and demand. The location of the exchange is irrelevant (all thing being equal) in setting prices. The article seems to suggest that China being the biggest consumer of gold should be setting prices but in reality is not and that is because it is the fault of the exchange. However it doesn't explain the logic of such an assertion.
 

Brumby

Major
Much has been commented upon by many on this thread regarding the recent market meltdown in China. The piece that is abnormal to be is the number of counters suspended across the board. Does anybody knows under what regulatory regime and the reasons available that can invoke a suspension? If such a sizable number of counters are being suspended, the movement of the index and the market as a whole cannot be representative of reality because in effect it is being artificially induced.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
The major stock holders that holds more than 5% of any one company is restricted from selling it for the next six months. Those guys are going to lose a lot of money during this prohibition period. These guys are going to unload a lot of real estate(ie. condos) to maintain liquidity. In return the real estate market is going to be dragged down. I also believe the shadow bank funds are going down as well.

In contrary, in 6 months time, most likely will rebound, so it could be better for them
I knew the crash in China would happen, the question is how bad?. I don't think it will be like Japan which has lost more than 2 decades (Lost Two Decades), far from it.
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antiterror13

Brigadier
I don't know where you got the informations about those who lost their money but in the world it works like the rich get richer and poor get poorer in those situations. Every bubble is created by the big fishes and when they got their money, they took off while they could with all the assests they could use. That's how this world works and China isn't an exception.

True, that's why we need a strong and credible regulators and Government to minimise those.
Capitalist without control is worse than Socialism.
Capitalist with proper check and balance is the best system
 

delft

Brigadier
This article is mind blowing because it is such a disconnect to the way a free market works. Pricing in an efficient market is merely a function of supply and demand. The location of the exchange is irrelevant (all thing being equal) in setting prices. The article seems to suggest that China being the biggest consumer of gold should be setting prices but in reality is not and that is because it is the fault of the exchange. However it doesn't explain the logic of such an assertion.
The contention is that the gold derivatives markets are rigged. I have even seen an accusation that people who want to have physical gold delivered on COMEX contracts are banned from the market. I have only read about it. I do not know. But on markets strange things can happen even on an old established as the Amsterdam stock exchange, the oldest in the World where naked short selling was invented more than four hundred years ago. So to have the gold price fixed on a metal market rather than a derivatives market makes sense.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
The odd thing about China is it's an outlier on many conventional social-economic wisdom. Some examples:

Conventional Wisdom- centralized planning produces too much inefficiencies and retards national growth.
Empirical Evidence- using centralized planning for 30 years, China produced the fastest sustained economic growth in human history.

Conventional Wisdom- single party rule produces too much corruption, which depress economic development, and impoverish the masses.
Empirical Evidence- corruption rose over three decades to heights not seen since the worst of Qing Empire, but China got richer and richer and not poorer and poorer.

Conventional Wisdom- authoritarian governments oppresses its citizens and cause widespread resentment against the elites.
Empirical Evidence- a poll by Harvard University showed Beijing enjoys >70% popular support; provincial governments about 60% support, county and local 45%-55% support.

Conventional Wisdom- as nations become more wealthy and produce sizable middle class, they'd want democracy.
Empirical Evidence- the CCP has done well co-opting the rising middle class by developing feedback systems to detect major grievances and address them before they get out of control.

I don't believe corruption is good for any country nor do I believe single-party rule is good (I live in a single-party State, and I want it voted out of power), but I think China is opposite on so many generally accepted wisdom, it behooves the rest of the world to take a closer look and see what is so different about the Middle Kingdom.

That is because conventional "wisdom" is based more on subjective values and ideals rather than hard-nosed figures and facts.

There is also an unfortunate and near universal dogmatic acceptance of certain "facts" in the west that very desperate needs some sober re-examination.

The key to good governance isn't democracy or authoritarian, but rather accountability and responsiveness to the wants and needs to the people.

Democracy was supposed to make leaders accountable to the people (voters), and make them more responsive and receptive to the wants and needs of their constituents.

Laws are supposed to root out corruption, and markets are supposed to punish inefficiency and incompetence.

The problem is that none of those things work as they are supposed to in real life.

Modern democracy has become such a rigged game, with conceptual art-like voting districts tailor made to ensure incumbents are almost impossible to vote out, party political machines that in effect has vetting and veto power over candidates, and professional spin doctors and media consultants that make it all but impossible for the voters to know anything real about the candidates they have to chose from, and a hundred other perversions and distortions all designed to manipulate the results to reflect anything but the will of the people, its little wonder voter turnout is so low. The only truly amazing thing about democracy is how it could be so openly corrupt and dysfunctional, and yet still enjoy cult like worship and veneration. The Kims of NK would be proud to be able to pull that off.

Laws in the west has also been perverted, with effective parallel legal systems for the rich and the poor.

The main reason there isn't more "corruption" in the west is because much of it has been effectively legalised.

Campaign financing is a prime example. In any other system, businessmen and shadowy groups giving politicians obscene amounts of money would ring all sorts of alarm bells.

In what world does people thing the rich and powerful would give millions of their own money away to individuals (not charities) and truly expect nothing back in return?

Finally, in the markets, there are organisation and individuals that wield so much power that they can bend the market to their will and profit massively from that. To put the cherry on top, these firms are so big, they are deemed too big to fail, so if they do screw up epically, they cannot be allowed to die as market forces and principles demand, and instead have to be propped up by the government with taxpayer money. Anyone who things that's a recipe for promoting good governance and responsible management is kidding themselves.

On top of that, you have blatant market distortions and manipulations by key financial institutions of key benchmark rates like LIBOR for their own benefit.

In effect, you have private entities wielding government levels of power, but doing so explicitly and unapologetically for personal gain.

The end result is the worst of all worlds. You have government like power to manipulate the markets, and government like lack of efficiency in the wielding of that power, because these too big to fail entities knows they will not be on the hook for the losses if things go badly.

But unlike governments, their manipulations are not about trying to improve the public good. So the public and economy as a whole looses out no matter if these entities are successful or not in their attempts to influence the market.

Don't get me wrong, China also has more than its fair share of problems.

But I think the key differences are that in China, everyone knows the system isn't perfect, so everyone is always vigilant and constantly on the lookout for signs that something is amiss.

And when something fishy is found, it is dealt with quickly and ruthlessly.

In the west, people overwhelmingly seem to believe that the system (be it market, politics or the law) is somehow perfect, and that so long as people are following the "rules" of the system, that it will all somehow magically work out for the best in the end no matter how many times real life experience proves that wrong. There seems to be a general shrug and accept kind of attitude towards anything that is fishy but not explicitly against the "rules"

I believe the key and price to both freedom and prosperity is not laws or democracy or any system or text, but eternal vigilance.

To become complacent in thinking your system to be so perfect as to no longer require your continued vigilance is to invite those who should least be trusted with power and influence to undermine everything you value by turning your own "perfect" system into the shackles that binds you to their will.
 

Brumby

Major
The contention is that the gold derivatives markets are rigged.

As you said it is the gold derivatives rather than the underlying metal itself. Each market has its own peculiarity especially derivatives but my contention is that the underlying base pricing is essentially driven through market mechanism of supply and demand. No institution can artificially sustain non market driven pricing just as we have seen with the failures of the Bank of England with the Sterling and the Thai Central Bank with the Baht.

If China wanted to there is no reason why it cannot set up its own exchange for trading gold derivatives. London and New York are established centres because with any monetary system - regulatory regime, compliance, transparency, legislative clarity, safeguard mechanism and money flows are equally important underlying infrastructures.

I have even seen an accusation that people who want to have physical gold delivered on COMEX contracts are banned from the market.

Trading and taking physical delivery is effectively two different issues. I only know of one trader who actually takes physical delivery but it involves significant additional cost. I have not heard of the accusation that you mentioned and would like to get a link to the story if you have it.
 
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