Chinese Economics Thread

abenomics12345

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I totally agree that bending the health care curve to avoid bankruptcy (and this applies not just to China, but really almost all middle and upper income countries). I am curious to your opinion as to how that can be achieved with the coordination of (providers, suppliers, etc) whose livelihood is derived from healthcare spending while still maintaining and improving the standard of care? While a blunt option is simply to reduce payments, changes in incentives could reduce the provision of care which is also detrimental. Do you think that the solution is widespread adoption of innovation in delivery and technology (such as AI assisted medicine) combined with massive economies of scale such that healthcare becomes net neutral or provide a slight boost to the overall economy vs being the headwind that it currently is?

The short and simple answer is Volume Based Procurements and DRGs.

I suggest you watch that video I posted by the PKU healthcare reform expert - she lays out exactly the problems before and what they're doing to fix it. These reforms bogged down under Hu-Wen and were finally launched in 2015/2017 with a few key policy changes - including reorienting the payor/regulator (NHSA - National Healthcare Security Agency - the payor; and NMPA - National Medical Products Administration - eliminating the old CFDA).

However, the part of the Sanming reforms does not address is how do you invigorate R&D for new drugs. Biologics drugs have been a novel class of drugs created largely to combat cancer - and like many industries in China, the Chinese biotech industry is nascent and catching up (still not quite best in class but a lot of "me too" and "quick follow" firms). However, the notion of a drug company to make money is to sell drugs at a price that can recuperate the upfront R&D costs (Globally, the average drug that gets approved cost about 1bln USD to go from IND to approval). Well guess what, if you come up with a 'new drug' that then gets volume procured by the payor at a fraction of the price of what you were hoping to sell for - it doesn't exactly foster commercialization of research. R&D creates technologies, but entrepreneur drives the revenues/profits and economic growth. This is the exact political economy problem they need to balance.

That statement is not really relevant.

As you've pointed out, you're trying to figure out Chinese GDP growth this year, and the potential growth effect from excess savings.

If you take a more granular view for the past 3 years, you can the US experienced a 5% jump from Jan 2020 to Jan 2021. This is more comparable to the Chinese situation. But then in 2021, the COVID lockdowns ended and we saw a mini-boom, which resulted in decreases in US household debt levels and a return back to the 15 year megatrend.

tradingeconomics.com/united-states/households-debt-to-gdp

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Using a 20 year view on household debt/gdp is just too long. You get the megatrend for the past 15 years, which is a steady reduction in US household debt since the Great Financial Crisis. Therefore a continuation of that trend is the part of a baseline GDP forecast for the US.

In comparison, the Chinese trend is steadily increasing household debt/gdp over the past 10 years.
There was a larger than normal jump in 2020 due to the pandemic, but since then, household debt/gdp has been stable.

tradingeconomics.com/china/households-debt-to-gdp

So if I look at the US situation, there was an increase in household debt of 5% combined with 12% of excess savings
For China, we've got an increase in household debt also of 5%, but excess savings of around 25% of GDP

So the effect of paying off the net debt increase only soaks up 20% of the accumulated excess savings currently in China.

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And I also question the validity of using household debt in China as a measure of general economic confidence and the capacity of the Chinese consumer to spend.

Remember that household debts in China are overwhelmingly in the form of mortgages for property, whether to live-in or for investment. In comparison, US household debt has a significant credit card and consumer loan component, which is a direct proxy for economic confidence.

On average, we've only seen minor decreases in property prices in China, so current existing wealth levels in property is largely intact.

However, the long-needed property crackdown/correction does mean expectations of property as a good investment bet are dashed.

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And another consideration which I didn't really want to outline previously.

The coming covid wave in the countryside will disproportionately affect the elderly because they are more vulnerable and many have resisted vaccinations. The traditional mourning period is 49 days, so this will subdue economic activity for an entire family/community. But afterwards, there will be an inter-generational wealth transfer from low-spending elderly to their younger heirs who do spend more.

Note that we're currently still in the 49 day mourning period from the effects of the big COVID wave in Nov/Dec-2022.

Hence I expect an economic pickup after Chinese New Year, as previously explained.
But then there will be an explosive economic acceleration starting Q2.

Before we go further - you need to understand excess deposits =/= excess savings. The former is a technical term used to describe money sitting in cash and the latter is a holistic increase in total net worth. You can have the former increase without the latter increase.

So netting off the 20% of accumulated excess deposits against increase in household debt, another big chunk of increase in excess deposit is precisely the reduction in real estate sales. In China if you weren't aware you pay for the entirety of the apartment upfront to and pay for the mortgage while the apartment is under construction - if you backed out the reduction in real estate sales in 2022, and the 2H of 2021 when Evergrande blew up, then applied a 60-70% haircut (meaning 30-40% of real estate sales = down payment with the rest in mortgages) - that explains for another significant portion of excess deposits sitting in bank accounts vs. run-rate pre-2021.

In addition, we have the reduction in stock market over the past year which further puts pressure on the wealth effect.

And as I've illustrated, significant sqm and value of housing is sold in Tier 3 and below - majority of which were speculative given population flows - you know very well this ain't coming back. People are not suddenly going to take what cash they've earmarked for 'investment' (or in this case, speculation) purposes, and spend it on iPads or Haidilao hotpot. Behaviourally, they are accounted separately and are not fungible.

The final part you don't quite understand is that the change in wealth effect is not "oh the house is *only* down 5% I'm going to spend like a fiend" - the change in consumption as a result of the wealth effect is calculated by the difference between "what was my apartment appreciating at" (growing 5-10%) to "what is it declining now" (-5%) - that delta is in the 10-15% range. That explains further reduction in willingness to spend.

The final piece of this puzzle is that you know as well as anyone that the wealth gap in China - MPC for rich and poor are not the same. If you tracked any granular retail sales data you would know that luxury consumption in China has *not* been impacted at all - Moncler, Richmont, LVMH, Mercedes, BMW, Moutai, Wuliangye, have all continued to seen strong growth throughout the pandemic/lockdown. Rich people will spend marginally more given the relaxation of consumption but that won't be nearly the scale you're talking about.

As such what you're arguing for in terms of consumption growth, is predicated upon those who don't have cash now, to make cash, and to spend. You need the *jobs* and *income* to come back first before spending comes back. As a result of structural transition away from real estate, there is a significant dislocation in the labour force that needs to sort it self out first, before the incomes/jobs come back. Any hope of an immediate snapback to spending without a corresponding increase in jobs and income is just hopium not based on reality.

I've already illustrated the significant increase in unemployment rate in the younger workforce which is ~18%.
 

Biscuits

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The FT has a fascinating two-part series on how Apple got intertwined in China.

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Part 1:
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I will not post the entire text because it is yuge. However, I'll add a few quotes.



And why China's dominance is going to be really hard to replace.



Bonus chart:


View attachment 105276

Folks predicting India getting 50% of orders by 2025 are talking nonsense. The "RoW" also includes Vietnam which thus far has been the biggest winner. I'd be surprised if China wasn't having a majority of production even by the end of this decade.
With Vietnam moving closer to China, it is likely that China will promote moving less trade secret heavy parts of the chain to Vietnam as a nation building scheme.

Vietnam is currently in an era where it can easily boom in growth, but it needs investment and it needs stable government protections.
 

abenomics12345

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@abenomics12345 What do you see as the new growth drivers post-real estate speculation?
The biggest thing is Belt and Road - that is necessary for demand generation for you can call the "Infrastructure Industrial Complex" (ala Military Industrial Complex) in China - the economy has gotten too good at building things - need to send that capacity elsewhere. To give you context, as much as people jerk off to MiC2025, it didn't make it into the Party Constitution, but Belt and Road made it into the Party Constitution:
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Then all the industrial upgrade we talk about here are all great - its just that the base is too small today. Like sure we get a couple hundred billion of growth from EVs and a few hundred billion from Semiconductors (now) - that's all great - except the offset is a 5 trln real estate hole. Aviation will be big - it will be a trillion+ industry, as will automobiles (which China is in process of winning).

Then you have consumption growth - Michael Pettis is right that consumption as a % of GDP is quite small, but he's also an idiot to believe China can't "invest anymore". The Three Mountains (Healthcare, Real Estate, Education) need to be removed (VBP/Health reform, 3RL/Housing for living not speculation/Non-profit of afterschool tutoring) for people to consume more. That is happening but unfortunately the 'rectification' is contractionary and not pro-growth (and certainly kicks entrepreneurs in the nuts - imagine if you are Yu Minhong getting wiped out - how can you feel confident about the business environment?) - but markets will adapt but it will take time for things to bounce back.

Final part is financialization - Market cap to GDP is quite small in China vs. other DM economies. There is a lack of what policymakers call "direct financing" and overreliance on "indirect financing". If anyone here works in finance, you will know the 'backwardness' of the Chinese financial industry vs. global peers and the general lack of sophistication in personal finance. Obviously this is why there is a focus on RMB internationalization - which is contingent on geopolitical factors. However, I'm not worried at all about Chinese people figuring out how to do high finance well given the willingness to work hard and learn.

The upside is definitely there but the biggest risks are:

1) the execution of local governments - for those of you who only pay attention to the relative competence of the Chinese MIC in developing sexy world class fighter jets - you also need to get a handle on why there are absolute scum of the earth managing other parts of the government and why there are messed up things in China as well.

2) geopolitical risks - war is not good, needless to say. But you have what the senior leadership also recognizes as the 'deteriorating external environment' as part of "change not seen for a century". US/Western orientation has clearly shifted, and in the short term, global south doesn't move the needle yet.

This is precisely why Xi has been telling people to 放弃幻想认清事实 and "prepare for struggle". If you go back to 2002 and read the Party Congress by Jiang - he clearly labels what he called 20 years of Strategic Window of Development. Senior leadership has always expected things to get tougher over time.

However, life isn't going to feel great when you're accustomed to 8% growth and are told to expect 4-5% in the best case scenario. (This is without that 100-200bp tailwind from population growth you had in the previous 4 decades - so more in per capita terms, which is fucking amazing if they achieved that). In the words of Hua Tuo - you need to 刮骨疗伤 - while it is good for you, it certainly feels like shit while in the middle of it.
 

tphuang

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The biggest thing is Belt and Road - that is necessary for demand generation for you can call the "Infrastructure Industrial Complex" (ala Military Industrial Complex) in China - the economy has gotten too good at building things - need to send that capacity elsewhere. To give you context, as much as people jerk off to MiC2025, it didn't make it into the Party Constitution, but Belt and Road made it into the Party Constitution:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Then all the industrial upgrade we talk about here are all great - its just that the base is too small today. Like sure we get a couple hundred billion of growth from EVs and a few hundred billion from Semiconductors (now) - that's all great - except the offset is a 5 trln real estate hole. Aviation will be big - it will be a trillion+ industry, as will automobiles (which China is in process of winning).

Then you have consumption growth - Michael Pettis is right that consumption as a % of GDP is quite small, but he's also an idiot to believe China can't "invest anymore". The Three Mountains (Healthcare, Real Estate, Education) need to be removed (VBP/Health reform, 3RL/Housing for living not speculation/Non-profit of afterschool tutoring) for people to consume more. That is happening but unfortunately the 'rectification' is contractionary and not pro-growth (and certainly kicks entrepreneurs in the nuts - imagine if you are Yu Minhong getting wiped out - how can you feel confident about the business environment?) - but markets will adapt but it will take time for things to bounce back.

Final part is financialization - Market cap to GDP is quite small in China vs. other DM economies. There is a lack of what policymakers call "direct financing" and overreliance on "indirect financing". If anyone here works in finance, you will know the 'backwardness' of the Chinese financial industry vs. global peers and the general lack of sophistication in personal finance. Obviously this is why there is a focus on RMB internationalization - which is contingent on geopolitical factors. However, I'm not worried at all about Chinese people figuring out how to do high finance well given the willingness to work hard and learn.

The upside is definitely there but the biggest risks are:

1) the execution of local governments - for those of you who only pay attention to the relative competence of the Chinese MIC in developing sexy world class fighter jets - you also need to get a handle on why there are absolute scum of the earth managing other parts of the government and why there are messed up things in China as well.

2) geopolitical risks - war is not good, needless to say. But you have what the senior leadership also recognizes as the 'deteriorating external environment' as part of "change not seen for a century". US/Western orientation has clearly shifted, and in the short term, global south doesn't move the needle yet.

This is precisely why Xi has been telling people to 放弃幻想认清事实 and "prepare for struggle". If you go back to 2002 and read the Party Congress by Jiang - he clearly labels what he called 20 years of Strategic Window of Development. Senior leadership has always expected things to get tougher over time.

However, life isn't going to feel great when you're accustomed to 8% growth and are told to expect 4-5% in the best case scenario. (This is without that 100-200bp tailwind from population growth you had in the previous 4 decades - so more in per capita terms, which is fucking amazing if they achieved that). In the words of Hua Tuo - you need to 刮骨疗伤 - while it is good for you, it certainly feels like shit while in the middle of it.

btw, I don't think you should be saying stuff like this, because manufacturing jobs and profits from factories are pillar industries that bring multiplier effect to the economy and allow money to be cycled through. It's only with disposal income and profits for workers/owners from these industries are you going to get people to buy houses, spend money on vacation, fly around the world and such.
a couple hundred billion of growth from EVs and a few hundred billion from Semiconductors (now) - that's all great - except the offset is a 5 trln real estate hole.
People at BYD would tell you that auto industries and jobs that support this industry represents 10% of the economy. So if China's auto industry expands by 10%, that's actually quite significant.
Let's say go from 27 million to 30 million cars next year - 3 million * 200k per car = 600 billion RMB. That in & itself is not going to move the needle but what about the construction jobs to build the car factories, supply chain factories or the infrastructure jobs to be created from having to move the cars & car parts around or workers spending more money in leisure (especially now that ZCP is over), vacation and real estate. You get my point.
 

abenomics12345

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btw, I don't think you should be saying stuff like this, because manufacturing jobs and profits from factories are pillar industries that bring multiplier effect to the economy and allow money to be cycled through. It's only with disposal income and profits for workers/owners from these industries are you going to get people to buy houses, spend money on vacation, fly around the world and such.

People at BYD would tell you that auto industries and jobs that support this industry represents 10% of the economy. So if China's auto industry expands by 10%, that's actually quite significant.
Let's say go from 27 million to 30 million cars next year - 3 million * 200k per car = 600 billion RMB. That in & itself is not going to move the needle but what about the construction jobs to build the car factories, supply chain factories or the infrastructure jobs to be created from having to move the cars & car parts around or workers spending more money in leisure (especially now that ZCP is over), vacation and real estate. You get my point.
Look there's a reason why industrial upgrade is #2 on my list - it is extremely important.

I'm not discounting the impact of multipliers - but to account for multipliers of industrial upgrade without accounting for the decremental multiplier of real estate deflation is not analytically rigorous and intellectually honest.

This entire focus on 'excess deposits' is just silly to look at without accounting for the portfolio management moves in aggregate:

Lets say I have 5 dollars of cash, 20 dollars of bonds, and 5 dollars of equities, and 70 dollars of real estate. If I sold 10 dollars of bonds, I now have 15 dollars of cash, 10 dollars of bonds, 5 dollars of equities, and 70 dollars of real estate. My *deposits* increased 10 dollars but my *savings* did not change at all. Yet some people are like:

1673971943257.png

The *actual* excess savings (note I am being precise in saying savings, not deposits) is maybe 3trln RMB - and it will not get spent all at once. So like yes, retail sales will grow in 2023 much faster than 2022, but it's not going to be as what people have suggested.

Don't get me wrong, I hope I'm wrong here and retail sales grow at 15% - but hope is not an investment strategy.
 

ZeEa5KPul

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The biggest thing is Belt and Road - that is necessary for demand generation for you can call the "Infrastructure Industrial Complex" (ala Military Industrial Complex) in China - the economy has gotten too good at building things - need to send that capacity elsewhere. To give you context, as much as people jerk off to MiC2025, it didn't make it into the Party Constitution, but Belt and Road made it into the Party Constitution:
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Interesting. I would have put urbanization as the biggest driver of growth for the next 20-30 years. This is an excerpt from a Reddit post I made a while back
Leaving aside productivity for a moment, let us consider what is meant by “labour force”. Most simply, it is the number of people in an economy within a certain age group (typically 16 to 64). This should immediately strike the reader as somewhat ridiculous – are these people interchangeable? Is a 20 year old rice farmer more useful to his country than a 60 year old applied physicist working in an industrial laboratory? Clearly not. To quantify this effect, I present the labour composition of the Chinese economy by sector:

Agriculture: 27%. Industry: 29%. Services: 44%.

Here are the GDP contributions of the same sectors:

Agriculture: 8%. Industry: 40.5%. Services: 51.5%.

I hope that the problem is clear when the data are presented in this way. An enormous number of people – I estimate around 175 million - are performing unproductive work that does little more than sustain themselves. They do not contribute to the national economy, they do not advance China’s industry or technology, they merely keep themselves from starvation. If you could wave a magic wand and move these people to the city, a straightforward calculation using these numbers shows that China’s GDP would expand by more than $8 trillion (in PPP terms) just from employing this surplus agricultural workforce productively. Of course, this is happening all the time as China urbanizes, and this $8 trillion (and much more from productivity growth) will be added over 30 years as this population transitions to city life.
That is happening but unfortunately the 'rectification' is contractionary and not pro-growth (and certainly kicks entrepreneurs in the nuts - imagine if you are Yu Minhong getting wiped out - how can you feel confident about the business environment?) - but markets will adapt but it will take time for things to bounce back.
I've never bought the "investor confidence" argument because I believe greed always trumps fear. Sure, entrepreneurs in sectors the government doesn't like are going to be hit hard - and the unlucky ones might find themselves in prison - but there are always new ones willing to take risks. It's especially easy in China where the government does your market research for you and straight out tells you the sectors it wants to grow.

Ultimately, as you said, markets bounce back.
Final part is financialization - Market cap to GDP is quite small in China vs. other DM economies. There is a lack of what policymakers call "direct financing" and overreliance on "indirect financing". If anyone here works in finance, you will know the 'backwardness' of the Chinese financial industry vs. global peers and the general lack of sophistication in personal finance. Obviously this is why there is a focus on RMB internationalization - which is contingent on geopolitical factors. However, I'm not worried at all about Chinese people figuring out how to do high finance well given the willingness to work hard and learn.
That comes with its own pathologies and I'm deeply ambivalent about China going down this road. I recognize the necessity of a strong financial system and I hope the government is capable enough to stop the inevitable parade of bubbles, crashes, and frauds that will come with financialization. Also, the China's industrial base must be unharmed by this - the deindustrialization that happened in Britain and America must be prevented at all costs. If the price for that is a third-rate financial system forever, so be it.
1) the execution of local governments - for those of you who only pay attention to the relative competence of the Chinese MIC in developing sexy world class fighter jets - you also need to get a handle on why there are absolute scum of the earth managing other parts of the government and why there are messed up things in China as well.
I wonder how much AI and surveillance technology can help with upward accountability from local governments to the central government. Something like this (Stephen Chen and SCMP, so take with sodium)?
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Perhaps I'm being overly optimistic, but I take the Legalist view that the scum of the Earth can be made to behave righteously with the consistent application of law.

I encourage you to post more of your thoughts about your long-term view (1-2 decades) of where China is heading.
 

tphuang

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The most serious decline in the fourth quarter was in December, but the growth of automobiles was 4.6, which was much higher than the annual level, but this is normal. The demand for car purchases and subsidies at the end of the year is superimposed. Here are the detailed data!
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right, the actual visit was quite poor in December. You can really see the effects of covid raging across the country. it was pretty poor in all of Q4.

Are you saying the numbers are inaccurate
I'm not saying that, but it was unexpected for me to see them grow by almost 3% in a quarter where retail and export are both down.

As I said earlier, I'm pretty optimistic about retail in 2023. and I would also expect trade surplus to be in positive margins once we get to Q2. I think we are going to see the continued deindustrialization of Europe and Japan over next year, which means China will take over even a larger chunk of global trade in 2023, which will make up for the decline in global trade activity in the first half of 2023.
 

tphuang

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Look there's a reason why industrial upgrade is #2 on my list - it is extremely important.

I'm not discounting the impact of multipliers - but to account for multipliers of industrial upgrade without accounting for the decremental multiplier of real estate deflation is not analytically rigorous and intellectually honest.

This entire focus on 'excess deposits' is just silly to look at without accounting for the portfolio management moves in aggregate:

Lets say I have 5 dollars of cash, 20 dollars of bonds, and 5 dollars of equities, and 70 dollars of real estate. If I sold 10 dollars of bonds, I now have 15 dollars of cash, 10 dollars of bonds, 5 dollars of equities, and 70 dollars of real estate. My *deposits* increased 10 dollars but my *savings* did not change at all. Yet some people are like:

View attachment 105306

The *actual* excess savings (note I am being precise in saying savings, not deposits) is maybe 3trln RMB - and it will not get spent all at once. So like yes, retail sales will grow in 2023 much faster than 2022, but it's not going to be as what people have suggested.

I think what I'm trying to point out is that there is a difference between doing trade or industrial production that's breaking even (+ paying workers next to nothing) vs ones where you are making good profits and compensating workers. The former is a case where there is not a lot of multiplier effects and the latter will have a lot more. People are going to spend money on tourism this year now that they can go outside and eat stuff and enjoy life again. People are actually going to be able to fly somewhere this year.

You shouldn't dismiss things like energy arb on cheap crude. Sure, it's just $50 billion export, but that arb brings in $30 billion in pure profit that gets spread among workers and owners that can then get spent on other things or get invested.

low margin industrial production and trading do not bring the same benefit to the economy as high margin/highly paid industries.
 
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