Chinese Economics Thread

Tam

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Registered Member
I like Merkel, she had done a pretty good job, but lately, you do have a point.

Take for instance, the zero interests rates policies of the Germans and EU.

It is the zombie company in China, the state own firm propped up by the state owned bank, wasting resources and unable to save itself by being competitive. The zombie wastes away without making a contribution to the society or economy only sucks up valuable resources that could have been put to better use.

I finally understood why zero rates are so bad, because it perpetuates zombie companies in the west with free credit.

A economy full of zombie companies is a zombie economy. Low growth, lack of innovation, too much debt which could be rather deflationary, too busy with survival than seeking to be more competitive. Then the future exactly like the past because the zombies rule.

That is Germany and the EU today. TikTok did not come out from the EU, and before that, neither did 4G or Amazon Google Facebook and the similar companies.

Europe has pockets of excellence, but they have a zombie economy and the zombie rules because of Merkel. How the handled the Greece financial difficulties a few years ago, that really was a picture of the future.



It is hard to disagree when we consider European zombie companies.

:oops:


You nailed it on zero rates.

Japan is also another country full of zombie companies, that's what all those QE and high debt to GDP ratio does to you, and the US is headed in the same direction. Don't take my word for it, take Ray Dalio's.

Zombie companies in China, if private, they die. If state, they are absorbed by the 'champion' and the management of the loser may probably get charged with corruption, treason or worst.

The most notable event of this is what happened to the CSIC ship building group. Top management got arrested, and the SOE is merged with the highly successful CSSC. 'Merged' is how they call it in the news, but in effect it was a takeover with CSSC management taking over CSIC assets. The new entity is then called CSG or China Shipbuilding Group.

The US to be more precise, is you have this big island of tech oligarchy built around monopolies and near monopolies (FAANG, S&P 5 and so on), surrounded by an ocean of zombie companies.
 
D

Deleted member 15887

Guest
Damn. Somebody give this guy the mic!!
In general progressives and left-wing economists/academics tend to be a lot more amenable to fair to China (John Ross, Richard Wolff, Cornel West are just some prominent left-wing Western economists/academics who are generally fair/more supportive of China, in addition to Yanis Varoufakis).
Overall, I feel like out of all the US Presidential candidates, Bernie Sanders would have been the most fairest towards China.
 

BrightFuture

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An encouraging sign.

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My girlfriend's parents are really poor farmers that always lived in a small house without a pipe system, in very modest conditions – my girlfriend is a satellite engineer. That's China; a nation of intelligent farmers that became engineers and scientists. A nation with opportunities for hardworking people, no matter the background or the status. I will leave it at that. Mao would have been proud.
 

Wangxi

Junior Member
Registered Member
Why China welcomes the pain Tesla brings

HONG KONG -- When China allowed Elon Musk to set up the Tesla Gigafactory in Shanghai in 2018, it was as if a big catfish had just been dropped into a placid pond. Homegrown electric vehicle manufacturers were suddenly in mortal danger. The introduction of the industry's apex predator signaled an existential challenge.

To make matters worse, Tesla had taken advantage of a new policy that permitted foreign carmakers to establish wholly owned operations in China, meaning that it was not obliged to share technology and manage relations with a Chinese partner. In addition, the cars produced by the $2 billion factory would be eligible for subsidies, just like those produced by native Chinese companies.

Some Chinese competitors were rattled. One, William Li -- often referred to as "China's Elon Musk" -- was obliged to inform investors in March this year that his company, Nio, may not have enough capital to last another 12 months. To be sure, many of Nio's problems were self-inflicted, but the challenge posed by Tesla had helped drive Nio's stock price down to a low of $1.19 in October last year.

The extraordinary resurgence of Nio's share price to $18.8 on Monday -- along with renewed optimism surrounding other homegrown electric vehicle manufacturers -- says much about the way business works in China.

The crucial insight comes down to what in Chinese is called the "catfish effect." Beijing calculated that by introducing a predator into China's market, it would force its domestic companies to get stronger in order to compete. In its eyes, Tesla would become the "Apple of the automotive industry."

Apple's engagement with China, where it makes many of its smartphones, has expanded the Chinese supply chain because of the imperative for Apple to source key components locally. It has also created spillover effects in which technologies originally intended for Apple phones have been adapted by suppliers and used by domestic competitors.

One of the reasons why Chinese smartphone manufacturers such as Huawei, Xiaomi, Oppo, Vivo and others have risen so quickly over the last decade is because Apple has continually seeded its Chinese supply chain of around 380 companies with the latest intellectual property. The emergence of Luxshare-ICT, a Chinese Apple supplier, to become a formidable competitor to Taiwanese contract manufacturing giant Foxconn provides an example of the power of this influence.

It is the hope of this spillover effect that endears Tesla to Chinese officials. They realize that whatever short-term pain is suffered by competitors such as Nio, WM Motor, Li Auto, Xpeng Motors, BYD and others, the longer-term advantages that flow from the deepening of the Chinese electric vehicle supply chain will outweigh them.

Already, the example of Tesla is attracting other foreign giants to jump in. Volkswagen said this week that it, along with its Chinese partners, will pour 15 billion euros ($17.6 billion) into manufacturing electric vehicles in the country over the next four years.

Volkswagen's calculations are revealing of the entire industry. It knows that its electric vehicle business will be crucial in a time of global transition away from fuel-burning engines. It also knows that China, as the world's biggest auto market, will be crucial for any carmaker hoping to lead global sales.

Thus the pressures on companies such as Tesla and Volkswagen to nurture their Chinese supply chains are set to intensify. Whichever electric vehicle maker in China is fed by the most high-tech and efficient supply chain stands the best chance of producing market-leading cars.

With all this as background, Beijing will not be worried by the latest statistics showing that Tesla is far ahead of homegrown rivals in terms of monthly sales in China. In one sense, this was all part of the plan. Tesla's bestselling Model 3 has energized the domestic market to such an extent that owning an electric vehicle has become a status symbol for the urban elite.

The consultancy McKinsey is predicting a bright new dawn. It says that in 2022, some 3.5 million electric cars will be sold in China, up from 1.2 million last year. The economies of scale that derive from such strong sales will enable manufacturers to cut prices over time, unleashing a mass-market momentum.

The promise of such a market is the main reason why regional governments have swung their support behind local manufacturers in recent months. The most eye-catching example of this came from the electric vehicle startup WM Motor, which managed to raise $1.47 billion in a single round of funding in September. The fundraising was led by SAIC Motor, one of China's biggest state-owned car companies, and also attracted the government of Hubei province and the cities of Suzhou, Hengyang, Hefei and Guangzhou.
It appears that faith in China's electric vehicle market is running deep.

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gelgoog

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The great uncoupling: one supply chain for China, one for everywhere else

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Inside the US campaign to cut China out of the tech supply chain


They are trying to do the same thing they did to the Soviet Union and the COMECON countries. China needs to strengthen organizations like the WTO and fight against this state of affairs. The US has a disproportionate amount of clout but they don't have that much actual economic power anymore. This ain't the 1950s. As long as China fights for separate deals I think they can avoid falling into the same trap. Of course it helps that people like Trump and Pompeo are so visible.
 

gelgoog

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Registered Member
...
Apple's engagement with China, where it makes many of its smartphones, has expanded the Chinese supply chain because of the imperative for Apple to source key components locally. It has also created spillover effects in which technologies originally intended for Apple phones have been adapted by suppliers and used by domestic competitors.

One of the reasons why Chinese smartphone manufacturers such as Huawei, Xiaomi, Oppo, Vivo and others have risen so quickly over the last decade is because Apple has continually seeded its Chinese supply chain of around 380 companies with the latest intellectual property. The emergence of Luxshare-ICT, a Chinese Apple supplier, to become a formidable competitor to Taiwanese contract manufacturing giant Foxconn provides an example of the power of this influence.

It is the hope of this spillover effect that endears Tesla to Chinese officials. They realize that whatever short-term pain is suffered by competitors such as Nio, WM Motor, Li Auto, Xpeng Motors, BYD and others, the longer-term advantages that flow from the deepening of the Chinese electric vehicle supply chain will outweigh them.
...

I disagree with the article. Apple sources what component from China? The PCB? The case? It is well known most the value inside their phones isn't sourced from China at all. If you want to thank someone thank the Chinese players like Huawei, Oppo, or Xiaomi.

With regards to Tesla I think the Chinese government allowed the investment for two reasons. One is to show to US industrialists that China's market is open to them too unlike what Trump says and the other reason is to increase the market share of electric vehicles to reduce the pollution in China's main cities. Chinese manufacturers by now have had years to prepare for this so I think they can survive the entrance of a player like Tesla perfectly fine.
 
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