Yes, China can go it alone, but at greater cost. Perhaps a $20 billion project by herself could be reduced to $15 billion by cooperating with Russia.
Chinese Aviation Industry
- Thread starter FriedRiceNSpice
- Start date
Why was the Canadair Arrow not proceeded with?
Avro Arrow
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Well it was outdated before it was even produced.See the purpose of Avro Arrow is to intercept nuclear bomber But by the 60 the main delivery of nuclear warhead is not bomber but missile .So what is the used of high flying and fast interceptor
Canada in those days is at the forefront of aerospace engineering. The aircraft is built by Hawker Sideley at Malton, Ontario close to Toronto
It was the first supersonic aircraft
The engine is Orenda Iraquois . It was designed for high speed chase. The wing is delta wing
The conservative kill them and they don't even want to leave specimen instead they come with chain saw and actually cut up the few prototype that they have It was a sad day for Canada .
Most of the engineer left for US and many were instrumental in NASA ,Lockheed, Boeing, MD
The consolation was that the money saved will be used for CANDU nuclear development .
But irony again irony. The conservative again sold the crown corporation AECL developer of CANDU for a song to consortium of SNC and lavalin
There are still a lot of talent left in Canada and some of them work for De Havilland famous for DASH 7 turboprop
And Canadian Northrup the builder of F5? which is latter merge with De Havillnad to form Canadair and latter sold to Bombardier.
Now history repeat itself Bombardier is running out of money and has to face Lawsuit by Boeing for dumping airplane at US market
Last edited:
And that was why Canada flew F-101 Voodoo's from 1961 to 1984?
Because currently China still can't be sure to do it viably on its own?
What is the situation with the WS-20 engine ? On the one hand we hear that the WS-20 will be installed on the Y-20 next year. But on the other hand there are reports that the WS-20 broke a axel during testing last year.
Which of the two reports is true ? What are the sources for these reports ?
The WS-20 entering production the first high bypass engine made by China will be a huge leap for China's aerospace industries.
Which of the two reports is true ? What are the sources for these reports ?
The WS-20 entering production the first high bypass engine made by China will be a huge leap for China's aerospace industries.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
UAC And Comac Developing Widebody Aircraft
May 22, 2017 | Aviation Daily
Bradley Perrett
SHANGHAI—. (UAC) of Russia and China’s Comac on May 22 launched full-scale development for a commercial widebody aircraft, setting up a joint company in Shanghai with an aim of delivering the first aircraft no later than 2027.
Although UAC and Comac engineers have been working on the concept since 2013, only now can detail design begin, said Vladislav Masalov, vice president of UAC and chairman of the board of directors of the joint company.
The new company is called China-Russia Commercial Aircraft International Corp. (CRAIC), and has been registered in Shanghai. Guo Bozhi, head of Comac’s widebody aircraft program, is general manager. His UAC counterpart, Maxim Litvinov, is his CRAIC deputy.
The basic version of the aircraft will carry 280 passengers over 12,000 km (7,500 mi.), making it somewhat comparable to the -900, but with a wider body suiting nine-abreast economy seating. Shorter and longer versions, seating 230 and 320 passengers, respectively, are planned, but their development will depend on demand.
Detail design should be completed by the end of 2018, by which time the partners will have chosen major suppliers. They have sent requests for information to 169 companies. Russian and Chinese companies will have a priority, followed by foreign companies that have joint ventures in one of the two countries. or will supply the initial engine for the aircraft. The Russian PD-35 engine can be used later, Masalov said. Airlines would like to choose between two engines, he adds.
The companies have not agreed on a permanent name for the aircraft. Two years ago it was awkwardly called the Long-Range Wide Body Commercial Aircraft. For the moment, the partners are using the working name C929, which was what Comac planned to call a widebody aircraft of its own design before the national leaderships of the two countries decided on a joint program. The Chinese want C929 to become the permanent name. Since that designation would mark the aircraft as a Comac product, a sibling of the , the Russians disagree.
A joint engineering center in Moscow, planned for 2018, will oversee development. It will employ about 100 engineers from both countries. At Chinese insistence, it will have a branch in Shanghai, where the aircraft also will be finally assembled.
UAC will develop the composite wing; wing-flap systems; engine pylons; and main landing gear, Masalov said. The Chinese responsibility includes the fuselage sections; horizontal and vertical stabilizers; nose cone; nose landing gear; and wing fairings.
The airframe will be at least 50% composite to cut weight and improve efficiency. The aircraft is also expected to have improved aerodynamic efficiency, and to rely more on electrical power. However, many detail decisions have not been made.
There is no exact public target for first delivery, but the partners say development and certification could take up to 10 years. UAC and Comac forecast worldwide demand for 7,000 widebody aircraft valued about $1.5 trillion in 2023–45. Most of the demand will come from China, elsewhere in the Asia-Pacific region, Russia and former Soviet republics, Masalov said. UAC and Comac have discussed the program with airlines and leasing companies in China, the aircraft’s major market.
The importance of the Chinese market gives Comac heft in seeking greater influence in the program. The Russian side is trying to maintain parity. The disagreement over the name gives insight into the struggle.
The application for a type certificate will be filed in 2019, Guo said. CRAIC will be the holder of the type certificate, Masalov said. Masalov hopes that Russian side will manufacture at least the elements that fall under its design responsibility, but he does not exclude the possibility of using Chinese suppliers if they are cheaper. “There is no firm agreement on component manufacturing distribution,” he said. “This issue will be agreed closer to the production launch.”
UAC President Yury Slyusar pointed out that introduction of the new widebody aircraft will enable both UAC and Comac to have complete commercial product ranges, from regional to long-range aircraft. For the Russian manufacturer, the new aircraft will replace the aging, four-engine Il-96 at the upper end of a product line that also includes the 100 and MC-21. For the Comac side, it extend the product range from the regional jet and C919 narrowbody aircraft into the widebody segment.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
The joint China - Russia aviation corporation C929 formally formed. The mode of operation is to retain core competency but subcontract the component to others just like Boeing and Airbus. So it is nonsense to talk about self sufficiency.People who never work in engineering talk BS. Henri K know what is talking about because he is executive with French aerospace company
After nearly a year of preparation, Chinese aircraft manufacturer COMAC and the United Aircraft Corporation of Russia (UAC) jointly celebrated the creation of their joint venture, China-Russia Commercial Aircraft International Co., Ltd. (CRAIC) on May 22 in Shanghai. The joint venture will be responsible for the governance of the new C929 wide-body aircraft program .
It was at the end of June 2016 that the two groups signed the agreement, under the testimony of Chinese President XI Jin Ping and Russian President Putin. , but the final assembly of the future aircraft will be based in China, Shanghai.
"The creation of CRAIC marks an important step forward in the long-haul commercial jet aircraft program. We will do our best to make this program a flagship model in the history of collaborations between China and Russia. "Said JIN Zhuanglong, CEO of COMAC," We will develop a competitive carrier in line with international airworthiness standards to provide better service to airlines and contribute more to the global civil aviation market. "
The Creation Ceremony of CRAIC (Photos: 知识 知识, UAC)
The C929 is a long, double-lane courier whose base version has 280 seats divided into 3 classes, with a range of 12,000 km. It is a jet like the Airbus A350 and the Boeing 787 , but it is actually closer to the A330 in terms of passenger capacity.
The objective of the Chinese aircraft manufacturer is to aim for a better economic performance of the aircraft for its future customers, of the order of 10 to 15%, compared to the A350 and the Boeing 787. For this, COMAC and UAC relies on the abundant application of composite to lighten the aircraft's unladen mass and a set of advanced avionics systems.
From a commercial point of view, CRAIC also hopes to recover 10% of the market share of the same segment as the A350 and the Boeing 787.
An intelligent cockpit demonstrator developed by COMAC, with voice control and retinal tracking (Photo: 知识 知识)
The C929 program will soon enter the initial design phase and will launch a series of tenders in the market to outsource the basic design and manufacture of components and systems to their supply chains, Supply.
This mode of operation is similar to what Airbus and Boeing have been doing since the last few years, where the two aircraft manufacturers retain only the core of their expertise in engineering and integration. This makes it possible to significantly reduce the cost by subcontracting the competitors, thus better controlling risks in terms of time, cost and quality, while controlling the entire industrial chain at source.
COMAC plans to put 7 to 10 to complete the design, manufacture, flight testing and certification of the aircraft, and deliver the first C929 to its customers between 2025 and 2027.
A large piece entirely made of composite in the framework of the pre-Chinese studies
For the time being the RACI between Chinese and Russian actors in this C929 project is not yet public, but it is already a few years since the Chinese industrialists began the pre-studies to anticipate the arrival of the project.
An example of this is the first large composite panel dedicated to the "future Chinese wide-body aircraft", which came out of the COMAC production line at the end of December 2015. This shows that the Chinese do not Will not be content with a simple financial participation in their collaborations with the Russians and hope to be able to contribute to the building in a program where their partners already have a long experience in the design of long haul since the Soviet era.
To be continued.
Henri K.
After nearly a year of preparation, Chinese aircraft manufacturer COMAC and the United Aircraft Corporation of Russia (UAC) jointly celebrated the creation of their joint venture, China-Russia Commercial Aircraft International Co., Ltd. (CRAIC) on May 22 in Shanghai. The joint venture will be responsible for the governance of the new C929 wide-body aircraft program .
It was at the end of June 2016 that the two groups signed the agreement, under the testimony of Chinese President XI Jin Ping and Russian President Putin. , but the final assembly of the future aircraft will be based in China, Shanghai.
"The creation of CRAIC marks an important step forward in the long-haul commercial jet aircraft program. We will do our best to make this program a flagship model in the history of collaborations between China and Russia. "Said JIN Zhuanglong, CEO of COMAC," We will develop a competitive carrier in line with international airworthiness standards to provide better service to airlines and contribute more to the global civil aviation market. "
The Creation Ceremony of CRAIC (Photos: 知识 知识, UAC)
The C929 is a long, double-lane courier whose base version has 280 seats divided into 3 classes, with a range of 12,000 km. It is a jet like the Airbus A350 and the Boeing 787 , but it is actually closer to the A330 in terms of passenger capacity.
The objective of the Chinese aircraft manufacturer is to aim for a better economic performance of the aircraft for its future customers, of the order of 10 to 15%, compared to the A350 and the Boeing 787. For this, COMAC and UAC relies on the abundant application of composite to lighten the aircraft's unladen mass and a set of advanced avionics systems.
From a commercial point of view, CRAIC also hopes to recover 10% of the market share of the same segment as the A350 and the Boeing 787.
An intelligent cockpit demonstrator developed by COMAC, with voice control and retinal tracking (Photo: 知识 知识)
The C929 program will soon enter the initial design phase and will launch a series of tenders in the market to outsource the basic design and manufacture of components and systems to their supply chains, Supply.
This mode of operation is similar to what Airbus and Boeing have been doing since the last few years, where the two aircraft manufacturers retain only the core of their expertise in engineering and integration. This makes it possible to significantly reduce the cost by subcontracting the competitors, thus better controlling risks in terms of time, cost and quality, while controlling the entire industrial chain at source.
COMAC plans to put 7 to 10 to complete the design, manufacture, flight testing and certification of the aircraft, and deliver the first C929 to its customers between 2025 and 2027.
A large piece entirely made of composite in the framework of the pre-Chinese studies
For the time being the RACI between Chinese and Russian actors in this C929 project is not yet public, but it is already a few years since the Chinese industrialists began the pre-studies to anticipate the arrival of the project.
An example of this is the first large composite panel dedicated to the "future Chinese wide-body aircraft", which came out of the COMAC production line at the end of December 2015. This shows that the Chinese do not Will not be content with a simple financial participation in their collaborations with the Russians and hope to be able to contribute to the building in a program where their partners already have a long experience in the design of long haul since the Soviet era.
To be continued.
Henri K.
Last edited:
The joint company only got $2M of seed money. We'll see if it is an actual serious venture