Chinese Aviation Industry

tidalwave said:

I would diassembly the first C1 engine for reverse engineering. Using Scanning electron Microscopy and X-ray diffraction to find out what materials used in the components then run CAD simulations to achieve the optimal crystal structure.

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And get shut out of virtually all prospective technology transfers due to bad credit? Not worth it, in my opinion.

tidalwave said:

You think countries are like islands. Let's say all the western countries do not talk to each other and do not share any industrial knowledges. You think each one can produce industrial products in a closed environment.
No, They all try to imitate each other in a certain way!

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What is the relation to my reply?

Alot of commercial products are based on reverse engineering. I am talking in the west. They won't copy exactly but it does give clues how to approach.

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Both reverse engineering and inspiration are used. I'd say more to inspiration, get the new idea and do one's own homework. Once again, from my own decades of engineering experience, it is many times better to do it oneself after getting the general ideal. And, getting general ideal is inspiration, not reverse engineering.

reverse engineering is not for everybody but if one has enough background then it's possible. Also, you got to have the right tools.

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I don't really understand your reply here. My second paragraph stated clearly that "reverse engineering is a chanllenging work" which is what you are saying here.

Are you obsessed to "reverse engineering"? Or sensitive to the Word? My Point is that it is nothing bad, nor something magic. It is just something one may have to do some times. But it is nothing one should Always do, not a preferred way.

taxiya said:

What is the relation to my reply? No

Both reverse engineering and inspiration are used. I'd say more to inspiration, get the new idea and do one's own homework. Once again, from my own decades of engineering experience, it is many times better to do it oneself after getting the general ideal. And, getting general ideal is inspiration, not reverse engineering.

I don't really understand your reply here. My second paragraph stated clearly that "reverse engineering is a chanllenging work" which is what you are saying here.

Are you obsessed to "reverse engineering"? Or sensitive to the Word? My Point is that it is nothing bad, nor something magic. It is just something one may have to do some times. But it is nothing one should Always do, not a preferred way.

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well, I never use the word cloning, its waste of time.

reverse engineering is a way to study or search for new things.

If the system use different materials and give better performance then by all means to find out what composition it is.

If the system incorporate a new component or stage that give better T/W then by all means incorporate that feature.

I never say cloning A to Z. Reverse engineering is used to study for new insights.

ahojunk said:

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2015-07-19 07:59 | Xinhua | Editor: Yao Lan

Civil aviation between China and two Asian countries along the Belt and Road, a China-proposed trade and infrastructure network, will enhance cooperation as China works to promote regional connectivity.

Air travel from China to Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan is set to improve following the meeting and signing of a memorandum between the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) and the two countries' civil aviation authorities on expanding cooperation.

"Thanks to the newly signed agreements, relevant airlines will see substantial increases," said CAAC's deputy director Wang Zhiqing.

Kazakhstan authorities last week announced several new air routes between Kazakhstan and China will be launched from this year through 2019.

By autumn 2015, four airline companies will operate 13 passenger flights and 21 cargo flights between China and Kazakhstan each week. Three companies will run three passenger flights and 15 cargo flights between China and Azerbaijan every week.

The number of air passengers from China to Kazakhstan has increased 81 percent to 70,000 in the past three years, according to data from Air Astana, Kazakhstan's biggest airline.

The Belt and Road Initiative refers to the Silk Road Economic Belt and the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road and was proposed in 2013 with the goal of reviving ancient trade routes between Asia and Europe. The network passes through more than 60 countries and regions, with a total population of 4.4 billion.

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also



Spring Airlines receives designation for China-Russia routes
Jul 20, 2015
Chinese aviation authorities have designated Shanghai-based on routes between China and Russia, though the Russia’s Federal Air Transport, Rosaviatsia, did not identify the specific routes.

Despite the in Russian international traffic in the first half, several airlines have announced new routes between the two countries.

Russia’s IFly Airline, which specializes in charter flights to leisure destinations, launched three-times-weekly Airbus A330 scheduled services from Moscow Vnukovo to Xian, Tianjing, Shenyang, on April 20. Transaero started four-times-weekly Boeing 767-300 services from Saint Petersburg Pulkovo International to Shanghai from June 14 through October 2015. On July 16, China Southern Airline launched Lanzhou-Urumqi-Saint Petersburg four-times-weekly Boeing 757-200 services.

tidalwave said:

I would diassembly the first C1 engine for reverse engineering. Using Scanning electron Microscopy and X-ray diffraction to find out what materials used in the components then run CAD simulations to achieve the optimal crystal structure.

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Reverse engineering isn't as easy as taking a electron microscope to the object and you can just figure out everything like that. Even after knowing what material is used, doesn't mean you know how to manufacture them, or making them reliably.

For example, Russia has the expertise on titanium welding and working with titanium -

Titanium, a strong and light metal used in jet engines, missiles, aircraft, and spacecraft, has a huge problem because this metal is notoriously difficult to work with, because titanium has a high resistance to heat. The Russians knew a great deal about titanium, which is found in abundance there. The Soviet aerospace industry was far ahead of the West in this regard

The British and French, who steered entirely clear of titanium for the Concorde. Instead they gave it a conventional structure, which limited Europe’s SST to a cruise speed of Mach 2.2 or so. Beyond that, skin friction would soften its aluminum hull too much.



The Russian basically had workout how to work with and weld titanium. So even if you know what material it is, if you don't know the process to use it, it is still useless to you.


Another example is LCD screen that you are most likely reading from right now. LCD screen was notoriously hard to manufacturer before, even though the science of it and how it work is understood perfectly, nobody back in early 80s figure out how to manufacture it in large quantity reliably that's why LCD wasn't popularise sooner. The yield rate was abysmal, with large amount of defects (dead pixels) appearing in almost every batch they produced. The critical problem was the method they used in manufacturing them - back then they were using the "side panel injection method" - basically they make the LCD wafer and sealed it, then inject the liquid crystal from the side of the panel. This method is highly risky and the result is almost never uniform. You almost have to pray for a single perfect and defect-free one to appear out of every 100 batch. But it was the only method to get liquid crystal into the panel back then so the yield rate was very very small and LCD panels was only avaliable in very small quantities.

Then came the Japanese, who spent years on the problem and they finally cracked it. Their method was quite simple and ingenious, and they held that secret to their advantage for a decade, until the Japanese asset bubble burst and the Japanese economy imploded and a lot of Japanese engineers started to work for the Koreans and Taiwanese. It is all in this book - "Liquid Crystal Display: Fundamental Physics and Technology", I highly recommend anyone to read it.



Anyway, the point is, even after figuring out the material, or even the molecular composition of the material, how to manufacture them, manufacture them reliably and in large quantities as end product is another matter all together.

taxiya said:

If reverse engining is that easy, there will be dozens countries producing jet engines today instead of only EU, US, China and Russia.
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That is not accurate, surf the net and you will find more nations are involved in the making of jet engines i will not tell the nations because that will deviate the topic, but your assertion is pretty wrong and to give you a hint L-15 has an engine made in one of those nations

Not sure if we are still in the "Chinese Aviation Industry" thread ??? ... even if surely relevant this thread is more a news-report tread than a general discussion on copy versus re-engineer, political and technical or even legal issues ! Maybe You start an own thread for this surely interesting or relevant issue.

Deino

Is anybody able to identify the plane?

IMO after several close looks most likely just another Flanker ....

Well, as you pointed out on CDF, it would be an awfully large Flanker (assuming that truck is the same class used to transport the J-31 prototype back in July 2012.