Chinese ATGM discussion


Broccoli

Senior Member
Chinese marines in recent exercise with HJ-8.
gnFWyWw.jpg


Would be probably good idea to put HJ-8L launcher to service since it's much more lighter... must be a bitch to carry that older variant around.
 

Insignius

Junior Member
I dont know what the heck is wrong with China's infantry anti tank doctrine.

These HJ-8 are still treated as replacements of the WWII era towed anti-tank guns existing in the infantry regiment TOE, and as such not really suitable for the modern mobile warfare of today, and the lower levels are still stuck with short ranged Recoilless Rifles that arent useful against moving targets at all, no matter their fire control computers.

The only real infantry ATGM, as in portable and equipped at the lower echelons, are the HJ-73, which is a hopelessly obsolete system, both short ranged, slow and low power.

I put this in the same line with:

PLAAF: Still Unguided Rocket Pods
PLAN: Still ASW rockets
PLA: Still no bodyarmor for all troops, still ZTZ-59s and no real portable infantry ATGM
 

plawolf

Brigadier
Despite all the propaganda from the usual suspects, China is not a nation gearing up for war.

Replacements for all the things you mentioned or the things that the PLA is currently lacking are all consumables. Meaning they all expire in time, and as such, is not a good use of limited funds when one does not expect to go to war anytime soon.

And in war, I mean WWIII level total war scenario, for anything less, the PLA would almost certainly have enough PGMs, body armour and next gen ATGMs etc in storage to fully equip the small number of elite divisions and special forces who would be needed for small scale conflicts.

Being the factory of the world also means that if Armageddon really comes, China would be able to repurpose its vast commercial manufacturing capacity for wartime goods, much as the USA was able to during WWII. As such, there is little need to waste resources buying body armour and expensive ATGMs for the entire army since those things have relatively short useful lives, and will need to be replaced again when they reach their expiration date.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
China is not about to go to war and does not have plans to prepare for such a conflict. Thus, there is no need for it to equip its troops with top-of-the-line equipment that will ultimately expire. If they can go about their learning curve with older equipment that are less costly, their job is done, not to mention older equipment often elicit more rigorous training as opposed to advanced technology.

Besides, there are tons of pictures of PLA and PLAN special troops in Somalia that are equipped with very modern stuff.

If push comes to shove, there is no doubt, with the current level of Chinese industrial capability, that the military would be able to refurbish most of its troops with stuff like PLZ04, FK-1000, SY-400, WS-2D, etc, that are usually not seen in great numbers.

So people should not be complaining how the PLA is not equipping itself with advanced equipment that is usually offered for export.
 

Insignius

Junior Member
Problem is, when your troops do not train with their new stuff, they are unlikely to be proficient with them if push comes to shove.

But this seems to be a problem that is being adressed now:

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The level of Chinese military training will be raised to actual combat standard to improve the army's capabilities, according to a guidance issued by the country's military leadership.

The Central Military Commission (CMC) issued the guidance after approval by Xi Jinping, Chinese president and chairman of the commission.

The guidance outlined concepts, principles, major tasks and measures to raise the military training level.

The guidance said strengthening combat readiness should be viewed as a top priority. It also called for improved mechanisms for training.

The guidance clarified tasks that need to be carried out for improving standards and stressed that problems in military training should be addressed through mechanisms and systems with innovative ideas and measures.

Xi heads a leading group for deepening reform on national defense and the military and he stressed military reform should be guided by the objective of building a strong army in the first plenary meeting of the group.

So, hopefully, we will finally see more PLA troops train with new stuff and with full gear in the future.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Problem is, when your troops do not train with their new stuff, they are unlikely to be proficient with them if push comes to shove.

But this seems to be a problem that is being adressed now:

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So, hopefully, we will finally see more PLA troops train with new stuff and with full gear in the future.


Infantry tactics are far more important than gear. Gears can be supplemented and learn and adapt in a matter of weeks during FTXs (field training exercises). It's the constant team work and communications that's important. When a unit trains to the point where they don't have to say a single "word" and used hand and arm gestures as communication and have greater noise discipline on the field, than that unit is combat ready. The next step is do the same thing with live fire exercises to get acquaint with the sound and terrain.
 
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delft

Brigadier
China is not about to go to war and does not have plans to prepare for such a conflict. Thus, there is no need for it to equip its troops with top-of-the-line equipment that will ultimately expire. If they can go about their learning curve with older equipment that are less costly, their job is done, not to mention older equipment often elicit more rigorous training as opposed to advanced technology.

Besides, there are tons of pictures of PLA and PLAN special troops in Somalia that are equipped with very modern stuff.

If push comes to shove, there is no doubt, with the current level of Chinese industrial capability, that the military would be able to refurbish most of its troops with stuff like PLZ04, FK-1000, SY-400, WS-2D, etc, that are usually not seen in great numbers.

So people should not be complaining how the PLA is not equipping itself with advanced equipment that is usually offered for export.
Somalia? I've never heard of PLA or PLAN special troops in that country.
 

tch1972

Junior Member
Chinese marines in recent exercise with HJ-8.
gnFWyWw.jpg


Would be probably good idea to put HJ-8L launcher to service since it's much more lighter... must be a bitch to carry that older variant around.

As shown in the photo, too cumbersome and heavy to be operated on dismounted role. A single HJ8 missile weighs 25kg making it inefficient to do manpad and be loaded by one loader. With lighter ATGM like Milan, loader can carry the missile in one hand and load it on prone posture and thereby reducing risk to the firing team. Even with reduced wight of 22.5kg for HJ 8L the loader can only reload in standing position. Not a tactical thing to do.

Anyway I think such system like HJ8 Milan, TOW which operate on a flat trajectory SACLOS are getting obsolete relative to what available in the market. . The best way to achieve longer range without taking much weight penalty is to change the missile flight profile to operate on a high trajectory and glide down towards it target. If u compare Milan 12.5kg-1950m vs Spike 13Kg-4000m, the latter is able to do more with almost the same amount. This is the direction China should pursue i.e develop their own version of Spike and Javelin rather than to do further improvement to HJ8.
 

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