China's Space Program Thread II

tphuang

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Thanks for pointing all this out and I certainly have heard similar explanations before of the problems facing Artemis program. I do agree with the sentiment of treating Artemis & CNSA program separately. China getting to the moon by 2030 and being set up for a long term stay should be celebrated regardless of whether it happens before Artemis.
 

taxiya

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-The american lunar return now requires the development of a new upper stage and therefore a new version to the SLS; even if the upper stage is derived from the Commercial Centaur V by ULA, the adaptation of the upper stage, its ground infrastructure and its crew rating will likely take longer than the advertised 2 years, for reference, it took NASA, Boeing and ULA 5 years (
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, p8) between ordering and delivery of the current ICPS upper stage, which is adapted from ULA's Delta IV launcher, we are talking about the same organisations (ULA and Boeing Space), that have generally not gotten more efficient over the past decade. The new upper stage adds significant uncertainty to the SLS's readiness where there wasn't before.
What is the target orbit for this updated approach? As I understood, the old one was NRHO. Is the updated approach goes to LLO? Therefor the upsized upper stage for SLS?
 

SCE2Aux

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What is the target orbit for this updated approach? As I understood, the old one was NRHO. Is the updated approach goes to LLO? Therefor the upsized upper stage for SLS?
According to a quote from Tory Bruno, Centaur V has 250% more energy compared to the Common Centaur, a stage not all that dissimilar in size to the ICPS on SLS. What that translates to in terms of sending stuff to the Moon is unclear to me: the current ICPS seems to handle TLI just fine - but it's Orion that is deficient in DeltaV when it comes to slowing down into LLO.

Mengzhou on the other hand, is smaller than Orion, sized correctly to do a proper Lunar Orbit Insertion.
 

TheRathalos

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What is the target orbit for this updated approach? As I understood, the old one was NRHO. Is the updated approach goes to LLO? Therefor the upsized upper stage for SLS?
As said above Orion (with the european service module) can't insert itself into LLO and come back; furthermore the warmer thermal environment of LLO is incompatible with at least Blue Origin's cryogenic refuelling architecture; NRHO also has station keeping and power generation advantages (which are worth it for the HLS during its months-long loiter time) over the polar LLO that would be required to land on the lunar south pole.


In other news

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Spacesail/Qianfan/Shanghai Yuanxin Satellite has received a license for operations in Brazil by the brazilian National Telecommunications Agency, because of delays in the deployment of the constellation, they only hope to start operations in Q4 2026; they are also studying ground stations in the country.


Update on the China Satcom Market
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In addition:
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"According to the China Geographic Information Industry Association, China launched over 120 remote sensing satellites in 2025, bringing the total number of civilian remote sensing satellites in orbit to over 640, maintaining its position as the world's second-largest remote sensing nation."

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This is largely speculated to the be the delivery of the upper stage + fairing for the inaugural launch+recovery of the CZ-10B (likely carrying Satnet LEO sats IMO), planned for April (although it could delay to May); CALT also recently announced that a first stage would be delivered in march.
 
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nativechicken

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Thanks for pointing all this out and I certainly have heard similar explanations before of the problems facing Artemis program. I do agree with the sentiment of treating Artemis & CNSA program separately. China getting to the moon by 2030 and being set up for a long term stay should be celebrated regardless of whether it happens before Artemis.
The issues with the US Artemis Program are:
It is 100% certain that it is not the same plan as the previous HLS Program, because neither the Starship HLS nor the Blue Moon MK2 HLS is likely to beat China's lunar landing timeline before 2030.
The truly viable plan is actually the Blue Moon MK1, which was originally the cargo version of the US lunar lander, much smaller than the Blue Moon MK2 (about one-third). In fact, there have been early reports that Blue Origin has long been preparing to modify the Blue Moon MK1 into a crewed lunar lander. This is the real PLAN B for the US Artemis Program.
The payload capacity of this Blue Moon MK1 is similar to that of the Apollo LM Spider (China's actual crewed lunar landing also falls within this category). There’s really no other secret to it.
As for the changes in the Artemis Program, they were all inevitable and long foreseen (when the Americans made those choices, professional circles in China and Russia began watching as spectators).
These choices are determined by interstellar travel, astrophysics, and the current state of aerospace technology reserves (Chinese literature reviews many detailed issues every year. After reading for over a decade, one can understand the state of various fields and only admire how brave Musk truly is).
In fact, there are quite a few insightful people in the comments sections of related YouTube videos.
 

Tomboy

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So apparently CZ-10C is fully methane? Hopefully this one doesn't have a joke of a payload capacity for its size and mass.

AFAIK possibly arrangement for first stage could be 9x140t with a stretched tank and the same or improved second stage from CZ-10B.
 
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gpt

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So apparently CZ-10C is fully methane? Hopefully this one doesn't have a joke of a payload capacity for its size and mass.

AFAIK possibly arrangement for first stage could be 9x140t with a stretched tank and the same or improved second stage from CZ-10B.

There are a couple of factors that limits the performance of this series of rockets, its derived from CZ10 so not optimized for LEO and not to mention at the beginning they're likely being conservative with the engine performance and trajectory design. They can probably iterate on this after a couple of flights which is why it is important to get it flying ASAP.
 

Tomboy

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There are a couple of factors that limits the performance of this series of rockets, its derived from CZ10 so not optimized for LEO and not to mention at the beginning they're likely being conservative with the engine performance and trajectory design. They can probably iterate on this after a couple of flights which is why it is important to get it flying ASAP.
IMO, CZ-10C is the well needed redesign given that it's basically a whole new rocket. Given that they'd probably have to fully redesign the first stage anyhow and use a new second stage, ideally they'd completely optimise it for LEO missions from the beginning this time.

CZ-10B should be the demo/stop gap to test new technology like that new methane upper stage while collecting more data and verifying recovery for CZ-10A and normal CZ-10.
 

TheRathalos

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View attachment 170629
So apparently CZ-10C is fully methane? Hopefully this one doesn't have a joke of a payload capacity for its size and mass.

AFAIK possibly arrangement for first stage could be 9x140t with a stretched tank and the same or improved second stage from CZ-10B.
Does someone have the original source to this statement (doesn't help chinaerospace.com's site is difficult to navigate)
The whole CZ-10C situation has been confusing for over a year, I'm not excluding that there are actually a CZ-10C and a CZ-10D.µ

Edit, nvm I got it:
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SCE2Aux

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Seems like there's been a fleetwide stand-down of the Long March 2-3-4 series of rockets, I'm guessing because of the launch anomaly earlier in the year? Are there any indications/rumours flying around about when they might be returning to launching?
 
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