China's Space Program News Thread

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gelgoog

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This ignores the fact that due to basic physics a second stage needs 1/10th the thrust of the first stage. If you have more power than that on the second stage you likely have an engine that is heavier than strictly required. Using seven engines instead of nine optimizes for cost at the expense of second stage performance. Assuming you use the same engine design on both stages.

SpaceX also went with nine engines on the first stage because this way you need less throttle down requirements on the basic engine design if you want to land back on the first stage. SpaceX at one point also had a five engine expendable first stage design, the Falcon 5, but they decided against it and in favor of first stage reuse with the nine engines.
 

siegecrossbow

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China has the economic productivity of 1980's Japan with the military might of the Soviet Union. Indeed, the relative GDP of China today is the same as 1980's Japan + USSR combined with military spending to match.

They couldn't beat the Russians militarily so they used economics. They needed a 2x GDP advantage. They couldn't beat the Japanese economically so they used the military. They needed to start off with an occupation.

How are they gonna beat someone that they can neither beat militarily nor economically?

You forgot to add a population of 1.4 billion and one of the fastest growing middle class in human history to boot.
 

AndrewS

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This ignores the fact that due to basic physics a second stage needs 1/10th the thrust of the first stage. If you have more power than that on the second stage you likely have an engine that is heavier than strictly required. Using seven engines instead of nine optimizes for cost at the expense of second stage performance. Assuming you use the same engine design on both stages.

Couple of issues

With the Falcon Heavy, you've still got the same single Merlin-1D boosting the second stage.
But on the Falcon Heavy, the second stage has to boost almost 3x the weight

That implies that the Merlin-1D is grossly overpowered as a second stage

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And given that a Merlin-1D is only 470kg, a larger Cangqiong engine wouldn't actually be that much heavier. Call it 100kg.
Then put that into the context of a Falcon Full Thrust second stage which weighs 111 tonnes plus payload of at least 5 tonnes. That's 116+ tonnes
The Falcon Heavy has an even heavier payload

An extra 100kg weight on the second stage accounts for less than 0.1% of the overall weight of 116+ tonnes

So I think it's obvious that it's better to optimise the rocket engines for the 1st stage

I reckon you can almost certainly get a much larger efficiency improvement with a 7 engine design on a Pallas rocket rather than 9 engines on a Falcon.

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Yes, this all assumes you use the same engines for the 1st stage and the 2nd stage.
But in the future when rocket launches are far more prevalent, you might as well design a second stage rocket engine which is optimised for vacuum operation AND to be lower cost because it doesn't have to be reused.
Again, that argues for the current crop of engines to be optimised for the 1st stage rather than 2nd stage



SpaceX also went with nine engines on the first stage because this way you need less throttle down requirements on the basic engine design if you want to land back on the first stage. SpaceX at one point also had a five engine expendable first stage design, the Falcon 5, but they decided against it and in favor of first stage reuse with the nine engines.

I think we can take it that throttle down requirements for a 7 engine reusable rocket have been thought out.
After all, it is one of the most fundamental design characteristics if you want to recover the rocket, and we know this is a critical requirement for all the rocket startups in China.

And note that the Blue Origin New Glenn is going with 7 engines on each 1st stage rocket. So why are they also going with 7 engines instead of 9?

Also, wiki has a SpaceX press release stating the Falcon 5 first stage as being reusable, not expendable.
 

Temstar

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Yep

But all the rocket startups in China are in the process of developing reusable liquid-fuelled engines now

There are 5 companies mentioned below, including Galactic Energy


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Isn't there like a whole solid fuel rocket booster industry in
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? Like if you're an university or research institute and you need to run a hypersonic experiment (and there are more of those in China each year than the rest of the world combined) you can just talk to the the government and they'll hook you up with one of those booster makers that who sort you out.

Galactic Energy is also based in Yizhuang and if you go to their company website they offer their GS-1, GS-2 and GS-3 solid rocket motors (which makes up the first 3 stages of the Ceres-1 vehicle) for sale separately if you're interested in buying boosters instead of launch service.

It's a case of government/military R&D spending filtering down and benefiting commercial space.
 

AndrewS

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Isn't there like a whole solid fuel rocket booster industry in
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? Like if you're an university or research institute and you need to run a hypersonic experiment (and there are more of those in China each year than the rest of the world combined) you can just talk to the the government and they'll hook you up with one of those booster makers that who sort you out.

Galactic Energy is also based in Yizhuang and if you go to their company website they offer their GS-1, GS-2 and GS-3 solid rocket motors (which makes up the first 3 stages of the Ceres-1 vehicle) for sale separately if you're interested in buying boosters instead of launch service.

It's a case of government/military R&D spending filtering down and benefiting commercial space.

Yes, but solid-fuel rockets have higher launch costs than liquid-fuelled rockets

However, if you're just starting out, it's helpful to have an actual rocket to develop and test with.
I expect this would shave off a few years of development time.

SpaceX spent 4 years on the Falcon 1, before they moved to the Falcon 9.
It took them 2-3 years before they had their first successful launch
 
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JSL

Junior Member
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High-resolution images of the Ceres-1 launch.

51732239827_8f38a2fccd_k.jpg

51733953440_fe9af37e07_h.jpg


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Look at how black that thing is. It is made of advanced carbon fiber, T-800 !! :eek:

This can almost be an ICBM !!

I suspect the 400 missile silos China is building now will house an extremely advanced ICBM that look like this !! Much bigger than DF-41 and will use the Fractional Orbital Bombardment System that recently developed to carry out nuclear strike against the United States from the south pole, releasing hypersonic glide vehicle.

Completely by passing their missile defense system and make it worthless !!

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Temstar

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00686eaKgy1gx7dkg3x4kj30u013zacr.jpg
2021年12月9日上午10时17分,凌空天行圆满完成“天行I”火箭遥五B飞行试验任务!
本次任务是“天行I”火箭的第5次飞行试验,也是“天行”系列火箭的第6次飞行试验。(凌空天行)

At 10:17AM, 09/12/2021, Space Transportation successfully completed Tianxing-1 test flight Y5B. This is the fifth flight of Tianxing-1 rocket and 6th flight in Tianxing rocket family.


Tianxing-1 is the vehicle on the left:
Tianxing-rocket-family.jpg
It's closely related to (or probably is just the commercial name for) Xiamen University's
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Temstar

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I looked up the footage and Jiageng-1 and Tianxing-1 seem to be two different vehicles, although obviously closely related.
Jiageng-1:

Tianxing-1 test flight Y2:
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Note how the two vehicles have different tips. Jiageng-1 has a tubular section at the very front which Tianxing-1 lacks. The wings of the two vehicles are also different.
For whatever reason Space Transportation like to keep a very low profile so there's not much fanfare around their tests.
 

by78

General
.
Look at how black that thing is. It is made of advanced carbon fiber, T-800 !! :eek:

This can almost be an ICBM !!

I suspect the 400 missile silos China is building now will house an extremely advanced ICBM that look like this !! Much bigger than DF-41 and will use the Fractional Orbital Bombardment System that recently developed to carry out nuclear strike against the United States from the south pole, releasing hypersonic glide vehicle.

Completely by passing their missile defense system and make it worthless !!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


.

Could you please not derail this thread? Thank you.
 
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