China's Space Program News Thread


Quickie

Major
Constipation is not funny.

This is no joke. There was this incident where one bugger got pumped with compressed air by a joker through his behind and got killed instantly.
Can't remember exactly where this happened but I recall vaguely it was some news report from India.
 
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Temstar

Major
Registered Member
Do you think the 1,000 ton engine will be as powerful as the F-1 that powered the Saturn V?
F-1 has 680 ton thrust at sea level. Large solids have always been much more powerful than large liquid fuel rockets in terms of raw thrust.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Captain
Registered Member
Anyone else believe that China should reduce focus on Mars and focus instead on Earth orbit, lunar exploration and inner solar system?

Mars is 100% economically worthless, it has 0 requirements for Earth life or economic feasibility:

1. Low but nonzero pressure
2. Low but not extremely low gravity
3. Low temperature
4. Low energy (both chemical and solar)
5. High radiation
6. Far away from Earth, can never bring meaningful amounts of material back to Earth or orbit
7. Chemically toxic

Moon:

1. Zero pressure means you can do chemistry like vacuum smelting to produce ultrapure metals and oxygen, as China just demonstrated!
2. Lower gravity than Mars means you can throw things back into orbit easier
3. High insolation and moderate temperatures even just a few m below the surface means only problem is pressure
4. High and permanent insolation means 24/7 PV or solar heat engines
5. No worse than Mars
6. Way better than Mars, only 2 light seconds away and proven to be able to be done, 60x shorter transit time
7. Way better than Mars, no perchlorates or other strong oxidizing species, and already proven to be able to grow plants during Chang'e missions.

I believe that Mars should be a side project. Focusing on orbit, Moon and maybe later Venus and Mercury will be scientifically and economically far more profitable.

Because Mars has such low energy content (600 W/m2 insolation, -80 C temperature, day/night cycle, all oxidized species at the surface, all heavy elements sunk to the core with no way to get them back up) compared to Luna, Venus and Mercury which are all extremely energy rich, it is just a dead ball of dust with absolutely zero advantage over Earth.

The only reason to even go there is for bragging rights, and I really think that 1st permanent lunar base, 1st orbital solar array or 1st extraterrestrial industrial production is far more prestigious than walking on Mars for a few hours.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Captain
Registered Member
For Mars, how about the advancement of space exploration technology? Under side project, perhaps?
that's for prestige. but you don't need Mars for prestige, and tbh, Mars is already overexplored and there is little value to exploring it further. Mercury and Venus had far less missions sent to them, are easier to explore (not in deltaV but yes in time delay and power) and have at least some economic potential.

Let them dump trillions into a frozen shithole for 'prestige' while there's
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to refine ultrapure metals and pure oxygen to build an actual space economy.

I will bet on 3 things happening by 2030:

1. No human will have walked on Mars and returned alive.

2. China will demonstrate 2/3 of the following:
a. Human orbiting or landing on the moon
b. Orbital solar power prototype that transfers net positive power back to Earth
c. Pilot scale production of industrial raw materials such as pure oxygen and pure metal on the moon using no energy from Earth

If Elon Musk or NASA gets someone to Mars first, congratulate them, then wish them luck for a safe return, because returning even a rock from Mars is unpredecented.
 

Sincho

Junior Member
Registered Member
Anyone else believe that China should reduce focus on Mars and focus instead on Earth orbit, lunar exploration and inner solar system?

Mars is 100% economically worthless, it has 0 requirements for Earth life or economic feasibility:

1. Low but nonzero pressure
2. Low but not extremely low gravity
3. Low temperature
4. Low energy (both chemical and solar)
5. High radiation
6. Far away from Earth, can never bring meaningful amounts of material back to Earth or orbit
7. Chemically toxic

Moon:

1. Zero pressure means you can do chemistry like vacuum smelting to produce ultrapure metals and oxygen, as China just demonstrated!
2. Lower gravity than Mars means you can throw things back into orbit easier
3. High insolation and moderate temperatures even just a few m below the surface means only problem is pressure
4. High and permanent insolation means 24/7 PV or solar heat engines
5. No worse than Mars
6. Way better than Mars, only 2 light seconds away and proven to be able to be done, 60x shorter transit time
7. Way better than Mars, no perchlorates or other strong oxidizing species, and already proven to be able to grow plants during Chang'e missions.

I believe that Mars should be a side project. Focusing on orbit, Moon and maybe later Venus and Mercury will be scientifically and economically far more profitable.

Because Mars has such low energy content (600 W/m2 insolation, -80 C temperature, day/night cycle, all oxidized species at the surface, all heavy elements sunk to the core with no way to get them back up) compared to Luna, Venus and Mercury which are all extremely energy rich, it is just a dead ball of dust with absolutely zero advantage over Earth.

The only reason to even go there is for bragging rights, and I really think that 1st permanent lunar base, 1st orbital solar array or 1st extraterrestrial industrial production is far more prestigious than walking on Mars for a few hours.
If you think Mars is inhospitable and that China should focus on Mercury and Mars - well, I have to tell you, Mercury and Venus are even more inhospitable. Mercury is too near the sun, has virtually no atmosphere and has a day side temperature of 800 degree Fahrenheit. Venus is enveloped by an atmosphere of the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide and is even hotter than Mercury, as hot as 880 degree Fahrenheit ! Both planets have surface temperature much higher than the melting point of lead (621 degree Fahrenheit).

I know Mars is very challenging for human exploration relative to the Moon but that's where your space technologies will improve by leaps and bounds in overcoming the hard challenges.
 

t2contra

Colonel
If you think Mars is inhospitable and that China should focus on Mercury and Mars - well, I have to tell you, Mercury and Venus are even more inhospitable. Mercury is too near the sun, has virtually no atmosphere and has a day side temperature of 800 degree Fahrenheit. Venus is enveloped by an atmosphere of the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide and is even hotter than Mercury, as hot as 880 degree Fahrenheit ! Both planets have surface temperature much higher than the melting point of lead (621 degree Fahrenheit).

I know Mars is very challenging for human exploration relative to the Moon but that's where your space technologies will improve by leaps and bounds in overcoming the hard challenges.

Like space travel and self-sustaining life for years. These are logical challenges.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Captain
Registered Member
If you think Mars is inhospitable and that China should focus on Mercury and Mars - well, I have to tell you, Mercury and Venus are even more inhospitable. Mercury is too near the sun, has virtually no atmosphere and has a day side temperature of 800 degree Fahrenheit. Venus is enveloped by an atmosphere of the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide and is even hotter than Mercury, as hot as 880 degree Fahrenheit ! Both planets have surface temperature much higher than the melting point of lead (621 degree Fahrenheit).

I know Mars is very challenging for human exploration relative to the Moon but that's where your space technologies will improve by leaps and bounds in overcoming the hard challenges.
sigh... Mercury and Venus are hot at the surface at the equator (or for Venus, the whole surface). OK. Sure. Could there possibly be regions that are not hot?
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Especially because the highest temperatures near the poles is just 400 F (220 C) in the open, -100 C in the shade, which is far better than -80 C globally?

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OK, let's review.

On Mercury, here is how you moderate temperature, produce energy and produce chemicals with existing tech:

1. Dig a hole at the edge of the shade of a small 50 m hill at the poles (where temperatures are moderate between 200 C and -100 C).
2. Lay a close looped liquid heat exchanger from hot side (200 C) to shaded side of a hill (-100 C). Laying pipe is proven tech.
3. Put a steam turbine in between to harvest the temperature gradient between hot and shade sides, which can generate electricity. This is called a geothermal heat engine. It has been proven to work on Earth.
4. Need water? Use electricity to melt the ice or just haul it into the hot side inside a tank. Melting ice inside a tank is proven tech.
5. Need oxygen? Use electricity to vacuum smelt metals into oxygen and pure metals. Again, this is proven tech.

On Mars, here is how you (can't) moderate temperature, produce energy and produce chemicals with existing tech:

1. There is no energy on Mars except what is brought there, or solar panels that are 40% less powerful than Earth. There is no more power from the planet.
2. Need shelter? Too bad, you can't dig because permafrost is harder than even metal tools on Earth.
3. Need to moderate temperature? Where's your energy coming from?
4. Need water? You need energy to melt ice, there is no planetside energy source.
5. Need oxygen? You need energy to run chemistry against thermodynamic gradients and Mars has little of it.

Notice how on Mercury, you need ultra high tech stuff like sheet metal and pipes to generate energy, moderate temperature and produce chemicals. Very, very hard stuff.

But on Mars, you need ez pz stuff like an energy source that's light, long lasting, doesn't need fuel and is extremely powerful just to not freeze, we have not even started to get into issues like radiation, chemical contamination, communication time, etc.
 

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