China's Space Program News Thread

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gadgetcool5

Senior Member
Registered Member
Let's first worry about making a moonshot rocket work before thinking about making it reusable.

Let's see the other two countries in this race:

USSR: N1 (not reusable) -> Energia (not reusable, but with plans to make it partially reusable)
USA: Saturn V (not reusable) -> SLS (not reusable)

It's only natural that China's first attempt LM-9 won't be reusable.

You forgot

USA: Falcon Heavy (partially reusable)
USA: SpaceX Starship (fully reusable)

Both of these are super heavy lift launchers in the same class as the Saturn V/N1/SLS.

If all goes according to plan by 2030 China will have an expendable super heavy lift launcher but the US will have already have had partially/fully reusable super heavy lift launchers for years. China will only (presumably) start working on it at that point.

As far as cost, it is not only commercial tourism where cost matters.

Government agencies also face a budget and countries cannot afford to spend unlimited amounts on space projects, especially a developing country like China with many people still living in relative poverty. The LM-9 will be an extremely expensive rocket, to say the least.
 

visitor123

New Member
Registered Member
You forgot

USA: Falcon Heavy (partially reusable)
USA: SpaceX Starship (fully reusable)

Both of these are super heavy lift launchers in the same class as the Saturn V/N1/SLS.

If all goes according to plan by 2030 China will have an expendable super heavy lift launcher but the US will have already have had partially/fully reusable super heavy lift launchers for years. China will only (presumably) start working on it at that point.

As far as cost, it is not only commercial tourism where cost matters.

Government agencies also face a budget and countries cannot afford to spend unlimited amounts on space projects, especially a developing country like China with many people still living in relative poverty. The LM-9 will be an extremely expensive rocket, to say the least.
ah so poor countries like CHina should focus on licking american boots just like what you are doing?
iirc America was #1 in epidemic control in 2019 too xD
 

Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
Did you know that for the initial manned space program four proposals were put forwards?

1. Tianjiao 1 - a little space shuttle on top of a booster rocket, much like the Hermes space plane
2. V-2 space plane, something like a spaceshuttle mated to a winged flyback booster
3. H-2 space plane, see picture attached, the most ambitious of the four
4. Boring old capsule, same idea as Soyuz

They put all four proposals in front of Qian Xuesen for his opinion and he said got for the capsule, and that eventually became Shenzhou. So why did Qian make that call? Because taking too big of a step in space program can lead to failures like the aforementioned Hermes. Had Qian made the wrong call China's manned space program would probably still be stuck on the ground today.
 

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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
You forgot

USA: Falcon Heavy (partially reusable)
USA: SpaceX Starship (fully reusable)

Both of these are super heavy lift launchers in the same class as the Saturn V/N1/SLS.

If all goes according to plan by 2030 China will have an expendable super heavy lift launcher but the US will have already have had partially/fully reusable super heavy lift launchers for years. China will only (presumably) start working on it at that point.

As far as cost, it is not only commercial tourism where cost matters.

Government agencies also face a budget and countries cannot afford to spend unlimited amounts on space projects, especially a developing country like China with many people still living in relative poverty. The LM-9 will be an extremely expensive rocket, to say the least.

Starship is realistically years and years away from even initial trials. Get real. Falcon Heavy doesn't match Saturn V or the proposed LM-9 lifting capacity but it is certainly the most impressive by far at the moment of in-service vehicles. You're talking like the Starship is already a proven piece of hardware when it has barely left the drawing board. BTW those test rigs are mockups built to simulate certain things and not even close to being a completed module. In fact even the design is still being worked on.

LM-9 is designed for 140T to LEO while Falcon Heavy is 64T to LEO. Starship is designed for over 100T to LEO. The difference between LM-9's design objectives and Falcon Heavy is greater than current LM-5 with Falcon Heavy. They are not quite in the same class despite all being consider super heavy lifters.

So the LM-9 may come into service around the same timeframe of Starship and the two are aimed at slightly different roles. Starship seems to be more manned spaceflight and totally reusable focused (cutting into fuel and payload limits because of reusability) and LM-9 is purely to get maximum payload weights off the ground for space station building and lunar base ambitions.

The question with reusability is truly one of economics first as difficult as the technology is. For LM-9's purposes, reusability isn't as important because it means you need to carry more fuel and have less thrust/weight and volume for payloads if all factors are equal. It is however quite useful for satellite launching especially if you need to launch a lot.

So the question becomes can I build one time use boosters and engines faster and cheaper than if I built reusable boosters. The engine saving is huge but the engineering quality of those boosters and engines will also have to improve quite substantially I would imagine for CNSA's contractors. Since they've always been designed for one time use, I doubt these materials and designs are ready to take those stresses without huge redesigns and manufacturing overhauls. The economics for SpaceX is going to be very different for CNSA - materials, fuel, labour costs etc.

Starship is technologically awe inspiring but it can also be considered slightly less practical for the state's purposes and space ambitions. Starship is Musk's dream of putting humans on mars and creating greater commercial, manned accessibility to space, the moon, and mars. He needs to make launches more economical and reusability also creates economies of scale as each produced unit continues to serve. Plus reusability for Starship is revolutionary and so attracts a lot of positive attention for SpaceX and investors. It'll be like the Apollo landers, rover, and Saturn V lifter all into one modernised package.

CNSA wants to deliver maximum payload without that whole ambience. They may be super heavy lifters of the same class but their designs and missions do differ. So I doubt LM-9 will ever be redesigned, at most possibly for reusable boosters but even then it's a question of economics first and then technology which none of the CNSA contractors are currently developing as far as we know. Probably because their mission profiles - space station and lunar base, do not align with the economics side. These are not going to be frequent enough to warrant reusable boosters I don't think. Plus you're risking very rare and valuable payloads with older used engines. If they install fresh and only tested engines to the boosters, then it's even less economical.

Chinese private space companies are looking into reusable though because they will likely carry much of the satellite launching operation for China and foreign customers in the future. They anticipate huge numbers of satellite launch jobs and the market is growing. The economics may work in favour of reusable here given the relative commonality of jobs and their frequency. Guess where SpaceX got the determination to develop reusable for? Exactly this market. The same one where Chinese private companies are looking at reusable. It's certainly not that useful for the once every few years mars mission unless you already developed the core technology for it and it's a big part of your investor driven business image. CNSA and SpaceX have very different "business" models even though some ambitions overlap.

CNSA would much rather have SpaceX's ability to design and produce those super impressive thrust, pressure, and impulse rating engines than it would want reusable boosters simply because the former is far more useful for what the CNSA is building towards than saving some pocket change for not needing to build new boosters every year or so, whenever those missions take place. BTW you're wrong about LM-9 being expensive. Yeah it's expensive the same way any public project is nominally expensive. The cost of the vehicle itself is less than pocket change made back literally in minutes of national GDP. Particularly if the LM-9s in question are put towards worthy tasks like space stations, heavy/multiple satellites, and lunar base building.
 
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taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
You forgot

USA: Falcon Heavy (partially reusable)
USA: SpaceX Starship (fully reusable)

Both of these are super heavy lift launchers in the same class as the Saturn V/N1/SLS.

If all goes according to plan by 2030 China will have an expendable super heavy lift launcher but the US will have already have had partially/fully reusable super heavy lift launchers for years. China will only (presumably) start working on it at that point.

As far as cost, it is not only commercial tourism where cost matters.

Government agencies also face a budget and countries cannot afford to spend unlimited amounts on space projects, especially a developing country like China with many people still living in relative poverty. The LM-9 will be an extremely expensive rocket, to say the least.
Depends on how you define super heavy, among space fans and professionals Falcon Heavy is NOT regarded as a super heavy. Usually super heavy rocket is what can put 100 tones and more to LEO (180km by American and 200km by Chinese definition). By this standard, Saturn V (120 tones), SLS block II (130 tones) and LM-9 (140 tones) are true super heavy. N1 and SLS block I are almost super heavy with 90 tones. Falcon Heavy is merely 63.8 tones to LEO, too far to be called a super heavy, it is in the same class as the proposed 921 rocket (70 tones LEO). Even among non-Chinese space fans nobody calls Falcon Heavy a super heavy.

SpaceX Startship is NOT fully reusable if you talk about the whole system. Only the second stage is reusable, the first stage (super booster) will be expended if you really want to send meaningful payload of the second stage somewhere. If you insist on reusing the whole system for the sake of re-usability, you would be cheating yourself for bragging right.

You apparently forget that reusing rocket greatly reduce its payload capacity. The higher orbit the worse. Note, compared to LTO, GTO is very low orbit. It is not like government don't care about cost, everybody want to do the most by spending the least. The fact is that based on current technology USA included reusable super heavy rocket for outer space is impossible. Forcefully doing so would render any moon or mars mission pointless and therefor a huge waste rather than saving as you expected. Just image, Falcon Heavy's stated mars payload is 16.8 tones in expended mode , to recover all the boosters how much payload is left? I'll tell you it is only half at about 8 tones. If your payload is a one piece capsule at 15 tones, how are you going to send it while recovering your rocket? You will build a double sized Falcon Heavy? Unfortunately double size is NOT enough, you have to triple the size or more. Why? Think of why elephant have thinker legs relative to their bodies. So in the end you will have to build some rocket so large that it will crash on itself under its own weight just for the sake of re-usability. It is useless.

In short, I repeat again, reusable rocket is good for near earth mission, it loss its attraction and practicality when the mission goes further away. All these are based on today's technology. And I am sure Elon Musk is well aware of that unlike what you may think.

If you were Chinese you would know the word 脑洞, but it is not innovation. P.S. SpaceX ONLY publicized their Mars mission payload in expended mode, maybe you need to think about why.
 

by78

General
Four upcoming space science satellites, to be launched by 2023:
1) Gravitational Wave Electromagnetic Counterpart All-sky Monitor (GECAM) for detecting electromagnetic signals associated with gravitational waves.
2) Advanced Space-borne Solar Observatory (ASO-S) for studying solar flares, corona mass ejections, and the Sun's magnetic fields.
3)
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(PDF).
4) The Solar wind Magnetosphere Ionosphere Link Explorer (SMILE), a joint project with Europe, will study the impact of solar winds on the magnetosphere, among other space weather phenomena.

50294792792_b9480e83ae_h.jpg

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50293962478_7f70f87297_h.jpg

50294795667_df28b97476_h.jpg
 

eprash

Junior Member
Registered Member
Four upcoming space science satellites, to be launched by 2023:
1) Gravitational Wave Electromagnetic Counterpart All-sky Monitor (GECAM) for detecting electromagnetic signals associated with gravitational waves.
2) Advanced Space-borne Solar Observatory (ASO-S) for studying solar flares, corona mass ejections, and the Sun's magnetic fields.
3)
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(PDF).
4) The Solar wind Magnetosphere Ionosphere Link Explorer (SMILE), a joint project with Europe, will study the impact of solar winds on the magnetosphere, among other space weather phenomena.

50294792792_b9480e83ae_h.jpg

50294642956_483cbf063a_h.jpg

50293962478_7f70f87297_h.jpg

50294795667_df28b97476_h.jpg
The GECAM is an important mission, Data gathered from it is expected to play a role in the design of future TianQin observatory satellites
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Government agencies also face a budget and countries cannot afford to spend unlimited amounts on space projects, especially a developing country like China with many people still living in relative poverty. The LM-9 will be an extremely expensive rocket, to say the least.

Two points

1. China is now a middle-income country, and will be approaching middle-high income by the time the LM-9 is ready.

2. You assume that the LM-9 will be a money sink. But the equivalent SpaceX Falcon Heavy rockets have demonstrated that they are commercially profitable. So it actually makes sense for China to develop a low-cost reusable LM-9 rocket.

Do you agree?
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
There is no economic or cost based arguments regarding projects like LM-9 that is critical to satisfy certain missions which in turn are necessary from a National Pride and Standing perspective.

Making it reusable is a headache and doesn't speed up things.

My opinion.
 
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