China's historical grand strategy: defensive or offensive?

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
Why not? If we trace the idea "Han Chinese" from its original form of Huaxia, then until the Qing dynasty, the analogy with Western Civilization was quite fitting I think. With the Qing conquest of China, and subsequently the Mongol, Tibetan and Muslim people, the idea began to evolve into Zhong Hua Minzu (Central Glorious Race-tribe). But this is nothing unusual in itself. The idea of who is western changed profoundly over time as well.

The confusing part is that the minorities in China today mostly comply with the western idea of ethnic group, while the Han don't. The 5 race classification from Qing/ROC was in a way more consistent. Wasn't it the case that in the 1982 census, over 500 million people wanted to change or claim different ethnic groups? The initial survey done in 1950 found over 400 different ethnic groups, according to Soviet methodology.
You slightly misread what I wrote, I was not comparing Han Chinese to all of Western civilization. Inadvertently, kind of proving my point. You took the entire concept of "western civilization" to make an analogue. That's not a great comparison, wouldn't you agree? Actually, I would simplify it to something like if an actual unified British culture existed, rather than separate Scottish, Welsh, English, Irish/Northern Irish etc. identities.

Minorities in China comply with the western idea of ethnic groups in name only. As you mentioned, the communists took the Soviet methodology (basically land and language), applied it broadly (and sometimes arbitrarily). However, practically speaking, most of these people live a life undistinguished from Han Chinese. I am not familiar with census results, but generally speaking, declaring yourself part of a minority group is to usually trying to reap affirmative-action type benefits (access to employment, university entrance qualifications, number of children, etc.). It is easy to go back and forth since Han identity is not tied to religion, blood, or even spoken language. For example, former drug kingpin Khun Sa fancied himself both a liberator of Shan people in Burma, but also patronized Chinese schools and entertained himself with Taiwan TV and music.
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
You slightly misread what I wrote, I was not comparing Han Chinese to all of Western civilization. Inadvertently, kind of proving my point. You took the entire concept of "western civilization" to make an analogue. That's not a great comparison, wouldn't you agree? Actually, I would simplify it to something like if an actual unified British culture existed, rather than separate Scottish, Welsh, English, Irish/Northern Irish etc. identities.
But why not? Such a comparison has been made before I and I find it a decent analogue for Huaxia and Zhong Hua Minzu. Western civilization started with Hellenism, transitioned into Roman Empire, whose legacy in turn was carried on by the Christendom, which in turn started evolving into Liberalism since the Age of Enlightment. From that point of view, we can see Taiwanese as our liberal brothers and sisters, united against the illiberal threat. Just like the old cultured Hua Xia people slowly coalesced, driven by their need to cooperate in order to counter the onslaught of the various Rong people.
 

2handedswordsman

Junior Member
Registered Member
But why not? Such a comparison has been made before I and I find it a decent analogue for Huaxia and Zhong Hua Minzu. Western civilization started with Hellenism, transitioned into Roman Empire, whose legacy in turn was carried on by the Christendom, which in turn started evolving into Liberalism since the Age of Enlightment. From that point of view, we can see Taiwanese as our liberal brothers and sisters, united against the illiberal threat. Just like the old cultured Hua Xia people slowly coalesced, driven by their need to cooperate in order to counter the onslaught of the various Rong people.
Man, you forgot the next step of western civilization, socialism either utopian (anarchist) or scientific (marxism). It's foundations set in France (utopian) and Germany (scientific). Many people in the West see as brothers and sisters the Mainlanders, Vietnamese, Laotians, N.Koreans etc
 

solarz

Brigadier
Man, you forgot the next step of western civilization, socialism either utopian (anarchist) or scientific (marxism). It's foundations set in France (utopian) and Germany (scientific). Many people in the West see as brothers and sisters the Mainlanders, Vietnamese, Laotians, N.Koreans etc

I wouldn't say it's Western civilization, but humanity in general. China is doing well on the path to Socialism.
 

2handedswordsman

Junior Member
Registered Member
I wouldn't say it's Western civilization, but humanity in general. China is doing well on the path to Socialism.
Sorry if i sounded exceptionalist, i wanted to continue the sequence of @nlalyst who stopped at liberalism idk why. I love how humanity tend to globalize culturally , east influencing west and vice versa. I personally have the Analechts of Confucius on my bookshelf, Chinese Buddhist tattoos on my skin, practicing yoga and wing chun kung fu before covid lock downs :) I try to find recent Marxist writings from China to study how Chinese style Marxism evolves. The best source i found is this:
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from mainland but i want more academic work. Language barrier is a problem though. Google tranlsate sucks
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
Man, you forgot the next step of western civilization, socialism either utopian (anarchist) or scientific (marxism). It's foundations set in France (utopian) and Germany (scientific). Many people in the West see as brothers and sisters the Mainlanders, Vietnamese, Laotians, N.Koreans etc
Marxist socialism is pretty much a defeated ideology in Europe. A very different type of socialism prevails these days in W.Europe: liberal socialism. But I still see that as fundamentally liberalism. Correct me if I am wrong? A non-trivial degree of socialism (wealth distribution) is I think essential, if we wish to have a humane capitalist, free market and globalist economy.

There is a pattern that the governments have grown the largest in those economies most exposed to international markets. I've read claims that the government share in economy of the Netherlands is close to 60%.
 
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supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
But why not? Such a comparison has been made before I and I find it a decent analogue for Huaxia and Zhong Hua Minzu. Western civilization started with Hellenism, transitioned into Roman Empire, whose legacy in turn was carried on by the Christendom, which in turn started evolving into Liberalism since the Age of Enlightment. From that point of view, we can see Taiwanese as our liberal brothers and sisters, united against the illiberal threat. Just like the old cultured Hua Xia people slowly coalesced, driven by their need to cooperate in order to counter the onslaught of the various Rong people.
I don't think you are wrong, but that's philosophy, not ethnicity.

What I am trying to get at is something like the criticism of something like "Han Chinese are committing cultural genocide against xxx people". What I'm trying to illustrate in this context is that it is somewhat arbitrary to classify "Han Chinese" as a giant overwhelming majority homogeneous group that is pulverizing the Uighur/Tibetan/Mongolian/etc. people into dust.

What if the Chinese government decided to breakdown Han Chinese into component subgroupings, i.e. Cantonese, Minnan Fujianese, Mindong Fujianese, Shanghainese, etc. etc.? Suddenly this story doesn't make as much sense.

All Scottish people know English, how many are fluent in Scots-Gaelic? I've never read a story about the cultural genocide being committed on Scots (I'm sure such articles exist, but it certainly would not be considered mainstream thinking).
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
All Scottish people know English, how many are fluent in Scots-Gaelic? I've never read a story about the cultural genocide being committed on Scots (I'm sure such articles exist, but it certainly would not be considered mainstream thinking).
Look up France. They have a long history of policies that could be characterized as cultural genocide.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Sorry if i sounded exceptionalist, i wanted to continue the sequence of @nlalyst who stopped at liberalism idk why. I love how humanity tend to globalize culturally , east influencing west and vice versa. I personally have the Analechts of Confucius on my bookshelf, Chinese Buddhist tattoos on my skin, practicing yoga and wing chun kung fu before covid lock downs :) I try to find recent Marxist writings from China to study how Chinese style Marxism evolves. The best source i found is this:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
from mainland but i want more academic work. Language barrier is a problem though. Google tranlsate sucks

Have you tried following
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2handedswordsman

Junior Member
Registered Member
Marxist socialism is pretty much a defeated ideology in Europe. A very different type of socialism prevails these days in W.Europe: liberal socialism. But I still see that as fundamentally liberalism. Correct me if I am wrong? A non-trivial degree of socialism (wealth distribution) is I think essential, if we wish to have a humane capitalist, free market and globalist economy.

There is a pattern that the governments have grown the largest in those economies most exposed to international markets. I've read claims that the government share in economy of the Netherlands is close to 60%.
It may took a hit especially after the collapse the Soviet Bloc but there's a strong foothold on academic level. The worst thing about Western Marxists is that they fooled themselves believing that a parliamentary win, will lead to socialism. That led strong CP's (French, Italian) to degrade into social democratic illusions in 50's-60's-70's. Recent examples are Podemos in Spain, SY.RI.ZA in Greece and Corbyn who decapitated from inside ( Labours ) when he sounded dangerous to the GB establishment. Anyway, when social injustice and class war gets inevitable, Marxism gets relevant in a spark. Nowdays a right wing, neo fascist in some cases , eurosceptic current have overtaken EU politics. That is for sure not liberalism. This is neo conservatism. Varoufakis is an interesting case in EU politics. Lets wait and see

PS. Markets and globalization can exist without capitalism ;)
Have you tried following
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Of course, US comrade is a spark of hope from the other side of Atlantic. Love him
 
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