China's Greatest Fear: Dead and Buried Like the Soviet Union (Closed)

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Iron Man

Major
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That is ONLY your assertion, in your western lens. It is why the two terms got equated by westerner. That is EXACTLY I disagree with you.
You can disagree all you want and attempt to claim your so-called "Chinese" lens here, but that is ONLY your assertion.

So apparently, we reached different conclusion from the same fact? Because the foundation of thinking is different?

The two parts above together actually tells that the 91% is a mix that settled and came around to be seen as one only recently. It is an ongoing progress and should not and will not stop and freeze to keep the other 9% separate forever (in the Chinese mind).

All I want to tell you (which is our difference, am I wrong about you?) is that the mix is an ongoing process since the beginning of China and it is and should continue. It is meaningless to emphasize the past and present differences (between ethnic groups) in Chinese context. Not only it is meaningless but it is against the Chinese idea.
Again, I already told you that I have not been attempting to judge whether migration and assimilation is “right” or “wrong”. This is however NOT the same thing as talking about the past and present DIFFERENCES between ethnic groups, because they DO in fact exist whether or not you personally want to talk about them. What a complete non sequitur!

The rallying cry could be true (I have heard of it). But you ignored the fact that the Ming put Yuan in the official history as legitimate dynasty that Ming itself inherited the mandate of heaven. You know who wrote and compiled "元史", do you?
Recognizing the legitimacy of the Yuan dynasty as a Chinese dynasty is NOT the same thing as recognizing the Mongols as “Chinese”. The Mongols used Chinese institutions, practices and officials to rule China; essentially every characteristic of the Yuan dynasty was Chinese, so why wouldn’t it be a Chinese dynasty? Nonetheless, the rallying cry of the Ming rebels was in fact to expel the Mongol foreigners, which clearly tells me they did NOT view the Mongols as Chinese, contrary to your ultra-romanticized and heavily-redacted historical claims.

Regarding White Lotus, I have not much respect as they are a secret religious sect. Whatever they call or think does carry weight to me. What counts is the official position of ROC which replaced Qing, and following PRC. Both republics recognizes Qing as legitimate Chinese dynasty, that is all I care. Mind you White Lotus does not have positive position in PRC books at least, it is regarded close to bandit.
Oh, no respect for the White Lotus, eh? How about the subsequent Taiping Rebellion? They said the exact same things. Also too “close to bandit”? Multiple Han uprisings pretty much all said the same thing: 反清复明 LOL, ok you want the ROC. How about Sun Yatsen himself? Here is what he said: “To restore our national independence, we must first restore the Chinese nation. To restore the Chinese nation, we must drive the barbarian Manchus back to the Changbai Mountains. To get rid of the barbarians, we must first overthrow the present tyrannical, dictatorial, ugly, and corrupt Qing government. Fellow countrymen, a revolution is the only means to overthrow the Qing government!” Good enough for you or are you going to spin yourself out of this one too???

The Manchu assimilation was not exactly a “harmonious” one like you romantically try to portray it. The Manchus actually tried to explicitly (by law) prohibit Han people from migrating to Manchuria early during the Qing, but due to subsequent pressure from Russia had to send Han infantry to Manchuria to garrison strongholds there. With them followed artisans, merchants, women, children. Manchus were eventually assimilated against their wishes because of necessity due to external pressures, subsequently becoming a minority in their own land and resulting in the Manchuria that we see today.

You need to face the fact that the people who actually lived in history and who spoke words which have been passed down to us, DISAGREE with your biased historical revisionism and romanticization of Chinese history, a history which looks nothing like what you are claiming.

So you are agreeing with me that China is not a nation state.

But then you continue on to say the following implying that I am defining China as a nation state which is not what I meant.
Nation state (noun): a sovereign state whose citizens or subjects are relatively homogeneous in factors such as language or common descent.

You: Everyone in China has a claim on every single square-centimeter of land because everyone shares the same blood with everyone else, shares the same ancestors.

This IS the definition of nation state; common descent (in your words “same blood”, “same ancestors”).

A nation state (the western concept created after 1700s) is NOT the SAME as shared common ancestry in the Chinese concept. Once again your interpretation of my (Chinese concept) shows that you are using the western lens to read Chinese.

No, I am not contradicting, it is you applying (once again) western concept on Chinese mind. That's how you got the argument with others in the first place.

Let me replace Nation with Family to illustrate.

My claim of common ownership of the same land does NOT try to eliminate the difference between "Nation" or "People". It is different people with shared bound, family A with family B sharing land/property because A's Son married B's daughter, still two family "Nation/Ethnity/People" whatever you like to call.

A Western "Nation" state is opposite, it is family A and B does not share land/property even there is intermarriage. the two family remains separated.

Nice try but you are making some seriously unwarranted assumptions here. First, what if the B’s daughter doesn’t even want to share your so-called “common” property with A’s family? What if B’s daughter married A’s son at gunpoint against her wishes? What if B’s daughter doesn’t even want to take A’s family name?

One last try to tell you the difference in mind set. I once had a conversation with a western person. We talked about family relationship, visiting relatives. Suddenly the person realized that there was a misunderstanding of the word "family", so he asked me "what do you mean by family?", I told him "My grandparents, nephew, nice, uncle, ante, cousin etc.". He then said "that is extended family" in west and not really regarded as one's family, family in the west is "one, his wife and children". I told him "Chinese don't make that much difference although there is closeness and remoteness". This is to show you that basic concepts from Family to People are quite different from China to the West. So don't try to judge from your own spot.
Look, I don’t know what “western person” you talked to, but that is the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard in a while. There is such a thing as “nuclear family” (husband/wife/kids), “immediate family” (including parents/siblings) and “extended family” (including all blood relatives), but there is no general Western perception of extended or even immediate family as “not really regarded as one's family”. Sorry but that is just a massive load of BS.

Yes, exactly.

When a question is phrased in a way that implicitly emphasizes a separation of concepts that are not actually separate in reality, it shows that the person or organization asking that question has ulterior motives. They are not really interested in your answer, they just want you to accept their premise.
ROFLMAO “ulterior motives”??? Seriously??? Like what kind of ulterior motives? Maybe you think I’m a paid CIA plant trying to foment splittism and separatism on SDF? Wow. Hey, just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean I’m not out to get you, amiright? :D
 
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solarz

Brigadier
Oh just go ahead and pick what you want to hear and ignore everything else I said. Yes, while the PRC is not explicitly founded on the rule of any particular ethnicity (what country is???), it is essentially Han-based rule because the Han make up the overwhelming vast majority of the political apparatus.

BTW, you obviously do not live in the US or you wouldn’t have said what you said here. Either that or you are just utterly clueless. Like the PRC, the US also was NOT founded explicitly on the basis of ethnicity. However, if you know ANYTHING about US history (I guess you don’t), then you would know that the US has most definitely been essentially a “white Christian” rule. From the 3/5 Compromise to the Trail of Tears to the Chinese Exclusion Act to the Japanese Internment to Jim Crow to the KKK and the modern alt right movement etc. etc. etc. (there are SO many more I haven’t mentioned), the history of the US is literally festooned with White-based rule. Does the US Constitution say a single damn thing about whites having the right to lord over all other peoples to their detriment? No, it doesn’t. So what’s your point?


I find your desperate attempt to divorce the 25 million deaths due to the Manchu invasion from the subsequent Manchu assimilation to be quite humorous, especially since this assimilation wouldn’t have even happened if this invasion did not occur.


So you feel that a people who’s entwinement with China constitutes only 26.8% of their history (and whose general desire to actually be called Chinese remains an open question) makes them somehow unambiguously and inseparably Chinese. ROFLMAO thanks for your opinion. We all have one.


We have all been discussing our ideal worlds, whether you spoke those words or not, so your bluster about me not pushing my ideal world on you is nothing but that: bluster.


An ethnic group that is native to Tibet and speaks a Tibetic language. I struggle to see how this elementary definition is somehow able to elude you.


I already told you but you obviously have chosen to ignore whatever doesn’t suit you. At minimum the TAR would be the “total set” and this region could hold a "hypothetical" referendum.


Look, you are free to see the history of the US as "festooned with White-rule", but I see it as a struggle toward achieving the ideals represented by the US Constitutions.

No country is perfect, but the US has come from the Trail of Tears and Jim Crow to Civil Rights and Gay Marriage. If the US was created as a White-Christian nation, none of those things would have happened. This is the difference that you are ignoring.

Likewise for China, if it was set up has a "Han-rule", we would not be seeing the many affirmative-action policies toward ethnic minorities that the government has implemented since its inception.

In contrast, the Yuan government was "Mongol-ruled". It had specific laws barring Han people from holding power, and separated people into different classes based on their race. To a lesser extent, the Qing government was also "Manchu-ruled". It had laws prohibiting or restricting Manchu-Han marriages, with the express purpose of preventing the "dilution" of the Manchu blood.

As for the Manchu assimilation, we can see a clear contrast between the Qing and the Yuan. Both built their empire upon millions of deaths, but where the Yuan brutally resisted assimilation using the policies mentioned above, the Qing decided to pursue assimilation (though they probably didn't see it as such) in order to consolidate their power. That this policy of assimilation came after their brutal conquest does not detract from the harmonious and successful nature of their assimilation.

Finally, on the issue of Tibet, your so-called "26.8%" is still 400 years. Expressing it in an arbitrary percentage does not change that fact. There is no definition or concensus anywhere that relates sovereignty with "percentage of historical relationship", so your 26.8% is utterly irrelevant.

You also define "Tibetan" as "an ethnic group that is native to Tibet and speaks a Tibetic language". In other words, you think foreigners should be able to determine the sovereign territory of China, as long as they are from a certain ethnic group and speak a certain language?

I think it's pretty clear that you have ulterior motives.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
Look, you are free to see the history of the US as "festooned with White-rule", but I see it as a struggle toward achieving the ideals represented by the US Constitutions.

No country is perfect, but the US has come from the Trail of Tears and Jim Crow to Civil Rights and Gay Marriage. If the US was created as a White-Christian nation, none of those things would have happened. This is the difference that you are ignoring.
Ok, whatever. You can see it as a valiant "struggle" if you want to. Even if it is, this is irrelevant to the fact that it most definitely has been a white-based rule in fact if not in name. You trying to deny this is flying in the face of reality.

Likewise for China, if it was set up has a "Han-rule", we would not be seeing the many affirmative-action policies toward ethnic minorities that the government has implemented since its inception.
Again, neither country was officially set up as ethnically-based rule, and yet BOTH countries were most definitely ethnically-ruled. And if China was so multi-ethnically ruled, why in the hell would the PRC feel the need to set up "affirmative action" programs in the first place? Did you even think about this before you posted this comment? Obviously the answer is that historically non-Han people were massively underrepresented in the Chinese political apparatus to the point where the PRC had to try and start rectifying the situation in order to be seen as more inclusive of minorities. And as I have already pointed out, even now the PRC is going about this in a comically ham-handed fashion with their minority representatives arriving to NPC assemblies in full ethnic regalia rather than professional business clothing as if to emphasize to the world that Chinese ethnic minorities were indeed a part of Chinese politics. I have a good chuckle every time I see a group photo of ethnic minority delegates standing on the front steps of the Great Hall of the People in their colorful costumes beaming bright smiles to all the cameras.

In contrast, the Yuan government was "Mongol-ruled". It had specific laws barring Han people from holding power, and separated people into different classes based on their race. To a lesser extent, the Qing government was also "Manchu-ruled". It had laws prohibiting or restricting Manchu-Han marriages, with the express purpose of preventing the "dilution" of the Manchu blood.
The Yuan government had specific laws barring Hans from holding power? Really?? Uh, so, who did the Yuan use to govern China with? Their horses? LOLOLOLOL GTFO with that nonsense.

Meanwhile Ming China had laws that FORCED minority and Muslim integration into Chinese society by forced marriages. This reminds me of the first part of the movie Braveheart where Edward the Longshanks says about his prima nocta policy: "if we can't get them out.... we'll breed them out". That's the exact policy Ming China pursued towards its ethnic and religious minorities.

As for the Manchu assimilation, we can see a clear contrast between the Qing and the Yuan. Both built their empire upon millions of deaths, but where the Yuan brutally resisted assimilation using the policies mentioned above, the Qing decided to pursue assimilation (though they probably didn't see it as such) in order to consolidate their power. That this policy of assimilation came after their brutal conquest does not detract from the harmonious and successful nature of their assimilation.
Again you betray your claims with your own words. No, the Qing did NOT decide to pursue assimilation and they did not see ANY of their actions as acts of assimilation. They tried to protect the Manchurian homeland using Han soldiers out of desperation, and the subsequent effect AFTER the fall of the Qing was eventual Manchurian assimilation into the Chinese fold. BTW, your continued butchery of the meaning of "harmony" is as quixotically humorous as ever.

Finally, on the issue of Tibet, your so-called "26.8%" is still 400 years. Expressing it in an arbitrary percentage does not change that fact. There is no definition or concensus anywhere that relates sovereignty with "percentage of historical relationship", so your 26.8% is utterly irrelevant.
You saying it's irrelevant doesn't make it irrelevant. And I find it quite amusing how desperately you repeatedly try to inflate the numbers by rounding up. There is no hard and fast percentage, sure, but this percentage speaks louder than all the BS claims of internet posters.

You also define "Tibetan" as "an ethnic group that is native to Tibet and speaks a Tibetic language". In other words, you think foreigners should be able to determine the sovereign territory of China, as long as they are from a certain ethnic group and speak a certain language?
You couldn't possibly be more hopelessly muddled in your reasoning here. Foreigners don't define "Tibetan" or Tibet's sovereignty WRT China. AND NEITHER DO YOU. Tibetans and the rest of China should. Tibetan is in fact an ethnic group native to Tibet and who speaks a Tibetic language; this is true whether you personally scream repeated denials at the top of your lungs or not. What is your definition of Tibetan, may I ask? Something along the lines of "100% Chinese blooded Chinese people since the dawn of time who love China stronk", I imagine.

I think it's pretty clear that you have ulterior motives.
Your continued accusation of "ulterior motives" is getting stupid. Go ahead and elaborate EXACTLY what you think my "ulterior motives" are.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
You couldn't possibly be more hopelessly muddled in your reasoning here. Foreigners don't define "Tibetan" or Tibet's sovereignty WRT China. AND NEITHER DO YOU. Tibetans and the rest of China should. Tibetan is in fact an ethnic group native to Tibet and who speaks a Tibetic language; this is true whether you personally scream repeated denials at the top of your lungs or not. What is your definition of Tibetan, may I ask? Something along the lines of "100% Chinese blooded Chinese people since the dawn of time who love China stronk", I imagine.

You said: "An ethnic group that is native to Tibet and speaks a Tibetic language. I struggle to see how this elementary definition is somehow able to elude you."

This definition certainly does not include Chinese citizenship, and does include foreign citizens that happen to be ethnic Tibetan.

Yet now you claim that "Tibetans and the rest of China should". Sounds like you don't even understand your own definition.
 

solarz

Brigadier
The Yuan government had specific laws barring Hans from holding power? Really?? Uh, so, who did the Yuan use to govern China with? Their horses? LOLOLOLOL GTFO with that nonsense.

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》规定蒙古人扎死汉人,只需仗刑五十七下,付给死者家属烧埋银子即可;汉人殴死蒙古人,则要处以死刑,并"断付正犯人家产,余人并征烧埋银"[
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》规定蒙古人殴打汉儿人, 不得还报, 指立证见于所在官司陈诉; 如有违反之人, 严刑断罪。
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元朝统治者尤严防汉人掌握军机重务﹐定制汉人不得阅军数﹐故掌兵权之
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长官(
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)终元一代除少数色目人外皆为蒙古大臣﹐无一汉人。
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法律地位上的不平等。元朝统治者曾下令﹕
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因争执殴打汉人﹐汉人不得还手﹐只许向官府申诉﹐违者治罪。又扩大为“蒙古﹑色目殴汉人﹑南人者不得复”﹐于是前者得以援例肆意欺压后者。
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则不在禁限之内。
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
As a Hong Kong people, what i think iron man is talking or asking about is the same as the famous question i have been frequently asked about "Do you think you are a Hong Kongese or a Chinese?" To me, and maybe most Hong Kong people, this question is trying to separate the inseparable.

Yes, by logic, these are two different things and seems to be mutually exclusive, but in Chinese culture they are just the same thing or they differentiate people not in the same way as western culture.

The very fact that westerns seems obsessed with asking such a loaded question is in itself extremely telling of the kind of brain washing the western media has achieved.

Just apply the 'logic' behind that question to any other country and the bias and subversiveness of it becomes readily apparent.

Would anyone be daft enough to ask someone from New York if they identify as a New Yorker or American; someone from London if they are a Londoner or British; someone from Paris if they are a Parisian or French?

Of course not, because those are not mutually exclusive things.

It is by asking such loaded questions and insisting people answer that the west is trying to create differences where previously there were none.

It is a strategy they have used to great effect time and again all over the world. Look at Pakistan and India; the two Somalias; Rwanda etc.

Anyways, why is this thread even allowed to be open? It's a long forgotten troll thread from years ago.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
You said: "An ethnic group that is native to Tibet and speaks a Tibetic language. I struggle to see how this elementary definition is somehow able to elude you."

This definition certainly does not include Chinese citizenship, and does include foreign citizens that happen to be ethnic Tibetan.

Yet now you claim that "Tibetans and the rest of China should". Sounds like you don't even understand your own definition.
The fact that you lack the ability to understand the standard definition of Tibetan does not equate to me not understanding it. Why should this definition include Chinese citizenship? Doing so would exclude a criteria that you yourself just demanded: "foreign citizens that happen to be ethnic Tibetan." ROFLMAO My definition is the standard definition of Tibetan and does not have to include what citizenship a Tibetan holds because they could be ethnic Tibetan and hold Zimbabwen or Australian or Swedish citizenship. So I have include these people too in the definition? How much more ridiculous can you get? When the definition states "ethnic group" it does NOT require a member of this ethnic group to have been born inside Tibet itself. "Native to Tibet" simply means the ethnicity itself has its roots in Tibet. Just like Chinese Americans who are born in the US are still ethnically Chinese but citizens of the US. BTW you never gave your own definition of Tibetan. I would really like to see that one. :)

When I say "Tibetans and the rest of China should" I mean exactly that. Those Tibetans who live in China along with the rest of China should be deciding sovereignty issues. I have articulated this exact point multiple times (both the fact of Tibetans having Chinese citizenship as well as my belief that secession from a body should require the consent of the whole body).

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This essentially says that Han were in general barred from the Privy Council, which is not at all exciting news since that was the highest governing apparatus of the Yuan Dynasty, along with the Central Secretariat and the Censorate. Of course these positions would be staffed mostly (but not even exclusively) by Mongols. What YOU said is that Han were "barred from holding power", which is of course patently false since pretty much every political institution save the top echelons were held mostly or even exclusively by Han Chinese, and even the top echelons had some Han officials, as your own link acknowledges.

The very fact that westerns seems obsessed with asking such a loaded question is in itself extremely telling of the kind of brain washing the western media has achieved.

Just apply the 'logic' behind that question to any other country and the bias and subversiveness of it becomes readily apparent.

Would anyone be daft enough to ask someone from New York if they identify as a New Yorker or American; someone from London if they are a Londoner or British; someone from Paris if they are a Parisian or French?

Of course not, because those are not mutually exclusive things.

It is by asking such loaded questions and insisting people answer that the west is trying to create differences where previously there were none.

It is a strategy they have used to great effect time and again all over the world. Look at Pakistan and India; the two Somalias; Rwanda etc.

Anyways, why is this thread even allowed to be open? It's a long forgotten troll thread from years ago.
"Brain washing"? LOL Of course being Tibetan and being Chinese are not mutually exclusive. You obviously didn't bother to read through the thread and my posts before posting your irrelevant response. I have already said that Tibetans are considered Chinese citizens. This does NOT mean that Tibetans in general WISH to be considered Chinese citizens. Comparing your ridiculous analogy to Americans: yes, it is generally daft to ask someone from New York if they are a "New Yorker" or an "American". It is NOT so daft to ask some Texans, however, if they are "Texan" or "American". Or some Hawaiians if they are "Hawaiian" or "American". Or some American Indians if they are "First Peoples" or "Americans". Yes they may all very well technically be both, but the question nevertheless is a different question for these people than it is for the typical New Yorker. That you can't understand the difference here reveals the massive degree of brainwashing you have become subjugated to.
 
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