Future High Speed Helicopter and next generation rotorcraft

Dishi

New Member
Registered Member
High speed helicopters including compound helicopters or tilt rotors will be a very important part of any major military's army and naval aviation fleet, providing advantages of high speed, long range, higher survivablity similar to a fixed wing aircraft and the flexibility of vertical lift and ship borne operations of a conventional helicopter. Some if the obvious advantages would be the higher speed and agility of next gen attack helicopters which can potentially replace fixed wing aircrafts like the su-25 and a-10 in the traditional CAS role, increased range and payload of transport helicopters that can augment capabilities in fixed wing medium tactical transport role like y-9 and c-130, and increased endurance and range of shipborne ASW helicopters.

With the USArmy's FVL program moving along fairly rapidly into the finalization stages for the Blackhawk replacement and future recon helicopter, Chinese army and naval aviation runs the risk of being left behind again as the z-20 Blackhawk equivalent is only recently introduced and the Z-10 is small and underpowered. Now that the 1600 - 2000kw class turbo shafts are in production and 5000kw class turbo shaft in development, it will be interesting to explore and share some of the recent developments in how these new engines can be applied to China's future high speed helicopter program.

Some of the known programs:

Blue Whale tilt-rotor which is similar to the Boeing v-44 in the c-130 20t capacity class
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Coaxial and transverse compound helicopter concepts
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Dishi

New Member
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Stop promulgating this meme.
I don't meme means what you think it means, and you're missing the point of this thread here. Z-10 is smaller than the ah-64, ka-50, mi-28 etc, and with a 1000kw engine it is underpowered compared to ah-1z which is roughly in the same weight class, power to weight ratio wise it's worse than the Tiger. It was designed with the constraints of the engine in mind. But I digress.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
I don't meme means what you think it means, and you're missing the point of this thread here. Z-10 is smaller than the ah-64, ka-50, mi-28 etc, and with a 1000kw engine it is underpowered compared to ah-1z which is roughly in the same weight class, power to weight ratio wise it's worse than the Tiger. It was designed with the constraints of the engine in mind. But I digress.
Meme means exactly what I think it means. You're spreading the "China can't into engines" meme.

The engine is 1200 kW on the latest variants (the ones with the upturned exhausts) and 1100 kW on every helicopter delivered since 2016. The AH-1Z has a 1340 kW engine and an empty weight of 5580 kg, giving a power to weight ratio of 0.24. The Z-10 supposedly has a weight of 5100 kg (a number I don't trust at all since it has almost identical dimensions to the Eurocopter Tiger, which is 2000 kg lighter, while the AH-1Z is significantly larger but only slightly heavier); even taking that number, the Z-10 has a power to weight ratio of 0.235.

Again, the empty weight numbers for these helicopters are all over the place and should be taken with several shakers of salt. I cannot credit that the Z-10 is 2000 kg heavier than a helicopter with almost identical dimensions.
 

Dishi

New Member
Registered Member
Meme means exactly what I think it means. You're spreading the "China can't into engines" meme.

The engine is 1200 kW on the latest variants (the ones with the upturned exhausts) and 1100 kW on every helicopter delivered since 2016. The AH-1Z has a 1340 kW engine and an empty weight of 5580 kg, giving a power to weight ratio of 0.24. The Z-10 supposedly has a weight of 5100 kg (a number I don't trust at all since it has almost identical dimensions to the Eurocopter Tiger, which is 2000 kg lighter, while the AH-1Z is significantly larger but only slightly heavier); even taking that number, the Z-10 has a power to weight ratio of 0.235.

Again, the empty weight numbers for these helicopters are all over the place and should be taken with several shakers of salt. I cannot credit that the Z-10 is 2000 kg heavier than a helicopter with almost identical dimensions.

I didn't say that, so stop putting words in my mouth. But you can't deny that higher power turbo shafts has not been a strong suite of Chinese aviation until fairly recently, and I'd say it still isn't right now. And make no mistake that the z-10 was designed with the original limitations of the 1000kw engines in mind, later version had better engines and had more armor which is good. Had the 1600kw engine been available at that time the z-10 designers would certainly had designed something larger and more capable in the 10t MTOW league.

And this thread is not about the z-10, there's a dedicated thread for that. I think you're nitpicking on a single statement that really has nothing to do with what this thread is about. Do you have something more relevant to contribute instead of starting an argument?
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
But you can't deny that higher power turbo shafts has not been a strong suite of Chinese aviation until fairly recently, and I'd say it still isn't right now.
Here's another thing I'd like to nitpick: where exactly are China's most recent turboshafts lacking?
Had the 1600kw engine been available at that time the z-10 designers would certainly had designed something larger and more capable in the 10t MTOW league.
Maybe, maybe not. Who can say? There seems to be no indication that China is designing a heavy attack helicopter, so I'd say more likely than not the engines weren't a factor. If China wanted an Apache-like chopper, it would have used initially weak large turboshaft engines instead of using initially weak medium turboshaft engines.
 

Dishi

New Member
Registered Member
Here's another thing I'd like to nitpick: where exactly are China's most recent turboshafts lacking?

Maybe, maybe not. Who can say? There seems to be no indication that China is designing a heavy attack helicopter, so I'd say more likely than not the engines weren't a factor. If China wanted an Apache-like chopper, it would have used initially weak large turboshaft engines instead of using initially weak medium turboshaft engines.
You do realize that China still doesn't have a turbo shaft that's above 2000kw in production right? Turbo shafts of 3000-5000 kW would be essential for heavy lift helicopters and tilt rotors, ie. China is only able to power light to medium lift helicopters currently. China has got a 5000kw engine in development, but it's anyone's guess when that's gonna be ready. And China would in no way back in the 2000s even hope to be able to design a heavy attack helicopter as there is no 'weak large turbo shafts' available to China period. It's not as if the designers had a choice, compromises had to be made. The first batch of z-10 prototypes used PW PT6C engines, which means that even the indigenous 'weak medium turbo shafts' weren't even available at that time, the overall design choice of a smaller attack helicopter is driven by the constraints in engine availability.

And again I digress, I'm not here to talk about turbo shafts and there's a thread for that I believe. Since China do have 2000kw engines now, the topic here is to talk about future high speed helicopters. I don't know why you're so triggered into nitpicking everything, I'm not here to poo poo on anything, but I think it's important to recognize that there's still a few glaring weakness in Chinese engine development, and I recognize that China is working hard on that, but it's not there yet.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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Registered Member
Meme means exactly what I think it means. You're spreading the "China can't into engines" meme.

The engine is 1200 kW on the latest variants (the ones with the upturned exhausts) and 1100 kW on every helicopter delivered since 2016. The AH-1Z has a 1340 kW engine and an empty weight of 5580 kg, giving a power to weight ratio of 0.24. The Z-10 supposedly has a weight of 5100 kg (a number I don't trust at all since it has almost identical dimensions to the Eurocopter Tiger, which is 2000 kg lighter, while the AH-1Z is significantly larger but only slightly heavier); even taking that number, the Z-10 has a power to weight ratio of 0.235.

Again, the empty weight numbers for these helicopters are all over the place and should be taken with several shakers of salt. I cannot credit that the Z-10 is 2000 kg heavier than a helicopter with almost identical dimensions.


Why so angry? I think the argument of being underpowered in comparison to other similar helicopters in the same weight class is valid, even more since there is no proof that the " latest variants (the ones with the upturned exhausts)" use a 1200kW variant, when even the uprated Z-10ME is officially promoted with a WZ-9 providing only 956 kW!

I know these rumors concerning a higher power variant too but again, why should the high-end variant offered for export - esp. after failing to gain the PA contract - still use a less capable variant?

Z-10ME data sheet Zhuhai 2018.jpg
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
I think the argument of being underpowered in comparison to other similar helicopters in the same weight class is valid, even more since there is no proof that the " latest variants (the ones with the upturned exhausts)" use a 1200kW variant, when even the uprated Z-10ME is officially promoted with a WZ-9 providing only 956 kW!
No idea, ask AVIC that question. Their poster makes absolutely no sense, and this isn't the first time. By the way, the Z-10ME in the poster doesn't have upturned exhausts, so it isn't the variant we're discussing

The 1100 kW claim is sourced from reliable PLA watchers
That's just what I can find at the moment; I recall a post by @jobjed here that claimed the WZ-9 engines delivered since 2016 are 1100 kW.

As for the 1200 kW variant, the source for that is somewhat weaker but should still be taken seriously (yes, GT has improved its coverage of the PLA significantly enough to now be taken seriously).
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Specifically this
The Z-10ME was an improved version of the Z-10 in use by ground and air forces of the People's Libration Army, according to a 2016 report published in Chinese military magazine Ordnance Industry Science Technology.

A new engine will be installed that may increase the chopper's maximum power from 935 kilowatts to 1,200 kilowatts, the magazine reported. The Z-10ME also has improved mobility, protection and firepower, the article said.

I know these rumors concerning a higher power variant too but again, why should the high-end variant offered for export - esp. after failing to gain the PA contract - still use a less capable variant?
Missed this. Oh, well, not a bad idea to revisit old ground and reexamine why we believe what we believe. I believe there are multiple corroborating lines of evidence for the 1100/1200 kW WZ-9 engines. One AVIC poster that doesn't even depict the correct helicopter is not going to sway my conclusion.
 
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ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Here's @jobjed's post about the WZ-9 quoting gongke
Specifically
WZ-9s supplied since 2016 have a maximum power of close to 1100 kW, some 200 kW higher than the early WZ-9s with their 900 kW
 
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