China's Defense/Military Breaking News Thread

[CottageLV]

I believe your view will change even more after you read my counter post and link provided... Decades ahead? I doubt so... Seriously, China dont really need much Europe stuff.



China only imports 123 AL-31FN engine for its last deal and its clearly going only for J-10A. J-11B, J-15 and J-11BS new plane coming out from production line will definitely be using domestic WS-10 engine becos AL-31FN is specifically modify for J-10A to use only.

Even China next generation engine WS-15 is going to be domestic. Not going for import for J-20.

As for Type 52C destroyer and Type 054A , with serial production started, no way they are using foreign import engine for those things.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Defence Exhibit showing mostly homegrown military chipset for JADM, radar, communication set and others....

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/str...ce-program-news-views-50-1143.html#post181579



Home grown high resolution satelite and Beidou II GPS which already achieve operation end of last year for most Asia region. Asia Pacific full coverage will be attained end of this year.

Europe Gallileo so far has not attained any kind of operation status and expected to be delay even further more....

Finally, there is reason why China has demoted to number 4th world arms importer... Becos of the domestic military parts and component are working. As I say, its too late for Europe to reverse and keep China rely on them.

The engine performance of WS-10 is just comparable to AL-31, which was first produced few decades ago. It takes much longer to spool up into full thrust, which was quoted from the actual test pilot of PLAAF. The Chinese single crystal turbine blades have much higher failure rates than the Russian and European counterparts, even greater so when compared to US. The perfection rate is also much lower in production, resulting in Chinese made engines more expensive than Russian AL-31. These manufacturing expertise will take years to master, perhaps after decade or two, until it reaches where US and Russia is at today. Plus WS-10 is the only somewhat decent engine that the Chinese military industry could offer, that could be truly called a 3rd generation fighter engine. The rest just have really old designs. In fact, the Rolls-Royce Spey begun to be copied by China since 1975 and only until 2003 was it completely to be able to be produced in China. It took those people that long to just copy an old engine, how long would you guys think it would need them to catch up to current standard.

WS-15 is just a speculation, there's no actual proof of it existing. Please don't claim something that doesn't yet exist, or else you're just like the Indians, always have super ambitious hopes but always later proven wrong. Koreans and Japanese all claim to have 4th gen fighter program, how many of you truly believe it will actually come to fruition. I'm not saying WS-15 is not real nor that it will not mature, I'm just saying that something is in early stage should not be used to prove a point, it's simply too early to tell.


As for the warships, your link provided no proof of indigenous production of marine engines. To my knowledge, a lot of the engines used are still imported from the Ukraine, the DA80/DN80. Of course there are domestic engine suppliers, such as ShanXi. But they are not powerful enough, hence, they are only used to complement the Ukrainian counterpart instead of being the main output motor. Even this engine is the licensed version of the German MTU 20V956TB92, I wonder what's the percentage of Chinese parts in it.

People can be optimistic but also realistic. You claim that once the mass production starts, they will be equipped with domesticate engines. What is the proof? Or perhaps just your own assumption? Engines don't just fall from the sky like rain drops. Those things take decades, perhaps half a century to master. There is a reason that Europeans and American dominate in this field, that is because they started A LOT earlier. It takes a lot of time to catch up.

As for global position system, China is great a fantastic job on it. But as for communication satellites and those in other sectors still lack behind, in terms of efficiency, data volume and accuracy. I don't want to go into a deep debate about the atomic clock, but to my knowledge, China still doesn't produce them at the precision levels of Western counterparts. If my memory serves me correctly, one of the lead engineers of the Chang'E program still said that atomic clocks had to be imported for this satellite.

The good thing is that satellites mainly comprise of semiconductors and China is a relatively strong player in this field. That is why China is no too far behind. AntiTerror, this answers your question?

The biggest disadvantage in Chinese Aerospace sector is the rockets. They still lag behind in propulsion and weight to power ratio. There is also an urgent need for large rockets, much bigger than the current models they have. Since China wants to setup a station on the moon, this rocket has to be developed. Currently, this is only in the early theory stage.


Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you on the idea that China shouldn't import from Europe, but differ in the reasoning.

You believe that China is now ahead of Europe and no long need the technology or the actual weapons. I totally disagree on this part. I believe that China is still at least a decade behind, even two decades in some fields (3 if you mention turbofan engines, or 4 if you mention high-bypass jumbo jet engines). China needs to be forced to develop its own technologies and develop its own R&D network. Importing and buying technologies from foreign countries will spoon-feed Chinese military industry complex into not wanting to innovate. This will degrade them to be like the Indians.

---------- Post added at 04:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:49 PM ----------

What CottageLV meant was his dream baby "Steppers", that's what he knows (does he ?) and the rest are just pure speculation

he said "J20 doesn't mean much" ... it shows how much he knows ?, perhaps J-20 don't use "steppers", that's why doesn't mean much to him, ohh well

You mind explaining to me what you have observed from just looking at the pictures of J-20? You saw super-cruise? Super maneuverability? Superior avionics? You have x-ray vision?

Have you not grown out of the age of personal insults?

Please list actual evidences and quotes of interviews, hard fact evidences. Don't just claim or speculate on what you think or believe.

 

[Lion]

The engine performance of WS-10 is just comparable to AL-31, which was first produced few decades ago. It takes much longer to spool up into full thrust, which was quoted from the actual test pilot of PLAAF. The Chinese single crystal turbine blades have much higher failure rates than the Russian and European counterparts, even greater so when compared to US. The perfection rate is also much lower in production, resulting in Chinese made engines more expensive than Russian AL-31. These manufacturing expertise will take years to master, perhaps after decade or two, until it reaches where US and Russia is at today. Plus WS-10 is the only somewhat decent engine that the Chinese military industry could offer, that could be truly called a 3rd generation fighter engine. The rest just have really old designs. In fact, the Rolls-Royce Spey begun to be copied by China since 1975 and only until 2003 was it completely to be able to be produced in China. It took those people that long to just copy an old engine, how long would you guys think it would need them to catch up to current standard.

May I know how long ago is the interview of the PLAAF pilot regarding WS-10? And I think he indeed mention is WS-10, not WS-10A.. If you think WS-10A is really that sucky, you will not see it on J-11B, J-11BS and J-15. Can you say year 2003 is same as 2008? No,right. The link where Chinese is able to increase the low MTBO life of AL-31FN engine by 65% more or less tells you something. And the factory is real, right there in Sichuan. Not speculation or whatever.

WS-15 is just a speculation, there's no actual proof of it existing. Please don't claim something that doesn't yet exist, or else you're just like the Indians, always have super ambitious hopes but always later proven wrong. Koreans and Japanese all claim to have 4th gen fighter program, how many of you truly believe it will actually come to fruition. I'm not saying WS-15 is not real nor that it will not mature, I'm just saying that something is in early stage should not be used to prove a point, it's simply too early to tell.

WS-15 is not just mere speculation. They are working on it... If not, they will not go for J-20. Or you are telling me J-20 is also mere speculation or fantasy? Just like PLAN is trying to commission Varyag and people start talking claiming it is without arrestor hook system. So they think China is some stupid idiot, trying to commission an angle deck carrier without arrestor hook? The how are they going to land the J-15?

Just like the same situation. If they are not preparing a brand new higher thrust engine.. Why do you think AVIC bother to making a J-20? Since Russian too have not even hitting the engine of their thrust requirement too. 117S is powerful but still not enough thrust engine J-20.. American engine is out of question. There need to be a more powerful one like WS-15. The photo I show is taken in 2006 where the design comfirmation is certify. So now its already 2012. It has more or less enter the testing phase.

As for the warships, your link provided no proof of indigenous production of marine engines. To my knowledge, a lot of the engines used are still imported from the Ukraine, the DA80/DN80. Of course there are domestic engine suppliers, such as ShanXi. But they are not powerful enough, hence, they are only used to complement the Ukrainian counterpart instead of being the main output motor. Even this engine is the licensed version of the German MTU 20V956TB92, I wonder what's the percentage of Chinese parts in it.

People can be optimistic but also realistic. You claim that once the mass production starts, they will be equipped with domesticate engines. What is the proof? Or perhaps just your own assumption? Engines don't just fall from the sky like rain drops. Those things take decades, perhaps half a century to master. There is a reason that Europeans and American dominate in this field, that is because they started A LOT earlier. It takes a lot of time to catch up.

Becos, China is under military embargo by western countries or more or less foreign stuff demand lots of money for more orders.
That is why L-15 trainer and WZ-10 attack helo took so long to enter service. Becos the local indigeneous process is still not in place until recently which delay the mass production and service of the weapon. You realise the 2 Type 052C destroyer were first commission in 2006. It took until 2011 to enter serial production to build another 6 more... Don't you? Why not buy more engine and start serial production in 2007? Why wait until 2011??

The biggest disadvantage in Chinese Aerospace sector is the rockets. They still lag behind in propulsion and weight to power ratio. There is also an urgent need for large rockets, much bigger than the current models they have. Since China wants to setup a station on the moon, this rocket has to be developed. Currently, this is only in the early theory stage

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

China has already successful test fired the new next generation rocket in 2006 and in fact already build the prototype in pieces. The only delay to 2014 reason is the the new launch pad station in Hainan island is ready only in 2014. This new generation of rocket is more than enough for moon exploration. There is reason why all the talk about China moon exploration.. They have something in plan and the likely capabilities to do it.. Now we have already enter the 2012 phase.

 

[antiterror13]

Quote from CottageLV
"The good thing is that satellites mainly comprise of semiconductors and China is a relatively strong player in this field"

And now he is saying ...... China is strong in semiconductors ????

Just a few days ago, he said something like "without steppers China is nothing in semiconductor" ... I am wondering whether he knows what she is talking about, does he really know electronic industry ?, perhaps he only heard about "steppers" and make a big noise about it because perhaps his friend or his boy friend talk about that ?

 

[paintgun]

now now, i think we all agree that this embargo is no more than a discriminatory act against China, but each of us can have a differing opinion on the details right?

lifting it up won't mean much for China, after all China has circumvented the embargo with dual purpose cooperations
but sure there will be benefits, things like military specific electronics without civilian analogue like datalinks, military satellites, softwares and systems, radars/EW plus subsystems, C4ISR systems, etc and of course engines

but of course US won't be selling F119/F135 anytime soon, and opening another supply chain of European engines does not make much sense, after all they have no comparable 5th gen engine

regarding WS-15, CottageLV have some valid points, it is okay to be 'skeptical' and not always optimistic
from the evidence we have (like the pic Lion posted), WS-15 has probably successfully finished it's lab testing, but no evidence yet of field testing

one has to wonder how long will it take for WS-15 from that to a finished product for the J-20, especially looking at WS-10's timeline and milestones, from the very first WS-10 on the J-11 to regiment wide use

 

[Lion]

now now, i think we all agree that this embargo is no more than a discriminatory act against China, but each of us can have a differing opinion on the details right?

lifting it up won't mean much for China, after all China has circumvented the embargo with dual purpose cooperations
but sure there will be benefits, things like military specific electronics without civilian analogue like datalinks, military satellites, softwares and systems, radars/EW plus subsystems, C4ISR systems, etc and of course engines

but of course US won't be selling F119/F135 anytime soon, and opening another supply chain of European engines does not make much sense, after all they have no comparable 5th gen engine

regarding WS-15, CottageLV have some valid points, it is okay to be 'skeptical' and not always optimistic
from the evidence we have (like the pic Lion posted), WS-15 has probably successfully finished it's lab testing, but no evidence yet of field testing

one has to wonder how long will it take for WS-15 from that to a finished product for the J-20, especially looking at WS-10's timeline and milestones, from the very first WS-10 on the J-11 to regiment wide use

WS-10 is China first advance turbofan, of cos it will take sometime to learn and absorb. How long it took CHina to get J-10 to prototype stage? How long it took J-20 to current stage? China indeed improve and fasten in every process.. Taking WS-10 guideline to guage WS-15 is terribly wrong.

 

[paintgun]

WS-10 is China first advance turbofan, of cos it will take sometime to learn and absorb. How long it took CHina to get J-10 to prototype stage? How long it took J-20 to current stage? China indeed improve and fasten in every process.. Taking WS-10 guideline to guage WS-15 is terribly wrong.

there is no such thing as first or second, third, etc turbofan
each engine is specifically different and requires a huge amount of testing, unless the WS-15 is derived from WS-10

not to gauge, but the only reference we have about recent modern military turbofan engine development is WS-10

How long it took the J-20 to the current prototype? 10+ years? It all started in the late 90's right, CMIIW

 

[escobar]

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Chinese and Russian navies officially started their joint exercise at the eastern Chinese harbor of Qingdao on Sunday.

Russian naval deputy chief of staff Rear Admiral Leonid Sukhanov and Ding Yiping, deputy commander of the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) Navy, delivered exercise tasks.

This marks the first naval drill between China and Russia, following four military exercises involving the two nations since 2005, Xinhua reported.

The April 22-27 drill, taking place in the Yellow Sea off China's east coast, involves a total of 16 vessels and two submarines from Chinese navy and four warships from Russian navy's Pacific Fleet as well as three supply ships being summoned for the exercise.

The exercise will focus on joint maritime air defense and defense of marine traffic arteries, including subjects of joint escort, maritime search and rescue, anti-submarine tactics as well as joint effort to rescue hijacked vessels.

 

[escobar]

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Chinese companies are promoting advanced weapons for the international market at the 13th annual 2012 Defence Services Asia (DSA) exhibition held from April 16-19 in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

The China National Precision Machinery Import and Export Corporation (CPMIEC) is marketing three truck-mounted transporter erector launcher (TEL) missile systems: BP-12A, KS-1A, and FD-2000.

Of the three, the BP-12A surface-to-surface missile weapon system can carry a 480-kg warhead within ranges of 80 km to 280 km, just short of the 300-km range and 500-kg payload export restriction under the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR).

The BP-12A first appeared at the eighth Zhuhai Airshow in 2010 and is a shortened variant of the B611 short-range ballistic missile. According to CPMIEC brochure obtained at DSA, the BP-12A is “used to attack various important targets with campaign depth, such as missile site, rocket and longer ranger artillery site, communication center, troop concentration site, logistics supply base, and technical support center.”

The BP-12A system can carry two missiles-in-container for vertical “hot launch.” The warhead and missile body will not separate during flight, the brochure said. The BP-12A missile system shares the same launching platform as the SY400 multilaunch guided rocket system and the same ground test and launch control system.

CPMIEC is also marketing for export at DSA the KS-1A medium-range air defense missile weapon system (SAMWS) and the FD-2000 long-range air and missile defense weapons system.

The KS-1A SAMWS can target both aircraft within 7 km to 50 km and cruise missiles within 7 km and 30 km. It has a truck-mounted dual hitch-type missile launching mode and box-type oblique hot launching mode.

The FD-2000 with vertical TEL is an advanced long-range, all-altitude air and missile defense system that can perform in “mass air raid and severe electronic jamming conditions.” It can target cruise missiles (7-24 km), air-to-ground missiles (7-50 km), aircraft (7-125 km), precision-guided bombs and tactical ballistic missiles (7-25 km).

“FD-2000 is mainly provided for air force and air defense force for asset air defense to protect core political, military and economic targets,” according to the CPMIEC brochure. It can also coordinate with other air defense systems to “form a multi-layer air defense system for regional air defense.”

CPMIEC is also promoting the tailless flying wing SH-1 unmanned aerial vehicle first exhibited during the 2010 Zhuhai Airshow. The system is used for tactical aerial reconnaissance and battlefield surveillance.

It can be outfitted with two different systems: a CCD digital scanning photogrammetry system or a lightweight multispectrum CCD digital camera system. The SH-1 consists of a ground support system that includes a control station, launch vehicle (ejection or rocket-assisted) and support vehicle. It has a range 180 km, flight speed of 90 to 150 km/h and a maximum altitude of 5,000 meters.

CPMIEC is also showcasing its new X-band truck or ship-mounted HK-CL Continues Wave Measurement Radar for precise measurement of radial velocity and all-range trajectory of moving targets, including cannon shells, rockets, missiles, jammer projectiles and manned and unmanned aerial vehicles.

The radar is possibly an upgrade of the HK-CL43 produced by the LEBON Radar Electronic Technology Co. and is being tested on some naval vessels as an acquisition target radar for the Flying Leopard FL-3000N surface-to-air missile weapon system.

 

[CottageLV]

May I know how long ago is the interview of the PLAAF pilot regarding WS-10? And I think he indeed mention is WS-10, not WS-10A.. If you think WS-10A is really that sucky, you will not see it on J-11B, J-11BS and J-15. Can you say year 2003 is same as 2008? No,right. The link where Chinese is able to increase the low MTBO life of AL-31FN engine by 65% more or less tells you something. And the factory is real, right there in Sichuan. Not speculation or whatever.

Doesn't matter how long ago it is, unless it is proven in formal articles, its improvement is just a speculation. Nothing is "destined to happen" or "obvious to happen". There was a famous car brand 10 years ago, forgot the name of it, Renault or VW, once had infamous overheating problem for several years. The design flaw was too great that the whole generation didn't end up solving it. Several years later, the new generation was introduced and people automatically expected it to be fixed, since it had been a long time and things should change. Guess what happened? Nothing changed.

I'm sure you have high level of education, since all overseas Chinese do. As an educated scholar/citizen, you should know that a scientific hypothesis, unless proven, is still just a speculation. Remember Galileo's Pisa Tower experiment? It is in human nature's inductive and deductive reasoning to believe that the heavier ball would fall quicker. Even until today, if it was not proven before, almost 99.9999% of society would still believe so. Just because 3 - 4 years had past (the interview was around 08-09, not 03), doesn't mean that WS-10 is automatically rivaling Russian and NATO counterparts. Like I mentioned before, those things takes years and decades to master. Saying these things are easy to master would be an insult to the Russians and Uncle Sam. It took engineers at PW and GE several decades to master those 4th generation engines. You think it would be easier and quicker for Chinese engineers to develop it, even though they have less technological know-how?

WS-15 is not just mere speculation. They are working on it... If not, they will not go for J-20. Or you are telling me J-20 is also mere speculation or fantasy? Just like PLAN is trying to commission Varyag and people start talking claiming it is without arrestor hook system. So they think China is some stupid idiot, trying to commission an angle deck carrier without arrestor hook? The how are they going to land the J-15?

Just like the same situation. If they are not preparing a brand new higher thrust engine.. Why do you think AVIC bother to making a J-20? Since Russian too have not even hitting the engine of their thrust requirement too. 117S is powerful but still not enough thrust engine J-20.. American engine is out of question. There need to be a more powerful one like WS-15. The photo I show is taken in 2006 where the design comfirmation is certify. So now its already 2012. It has more or less enter the testing phase.

I'm not saying that WS-15 doesn't exist, just saying it is still too early to tell. Plus, it is not uncommon historically for Chinese military aviation industry to over estimate their ability and end up cancelling the programs. I'm sure you're also aware of this, if not, I can list no less than ten models right now. Don't forget the TEL Hejas, that thing is a joke. Remember how ambitious they were and look how it ended up.

On top of that, you're also overstating my words. All I was saying was that, unless 100% proven, what we think are just speculations. I'm not saying that J-20 is just a mere fantasy. However, so far we have not seen any 4th generation features or abilities on the J20, other than its stealthy hull. So far it doesn't even have thrust vectoring.

Becos, China is under military embargo by western countries or more or less foreign stuff demand lots of money for more orders.
That is why L-15 trainer and WZ-10 attack helo took so long to enter service. Becos the local indigeneous process is still not in place until recently which delay the mass production and service of the weapon. You realise the 2 Type 052C destroyer were first commission in 2006. It took until 2011 to enter serial production to build another 6 more... Don't you? Why not buy more engine and start serial production in 2007? Why wait until 2011??

How is this a rebut to what I said? Please use proper English and double check your grammar. It is hard to understand.

Up to this day, there is no proven fact of full domestic production of these engines. If you believe so, please provide a link. As I have mentioned multiple times already, you can't just assume. Even if it is assembled domestically, what's the percentage of indigenous parts? Probably less than 20%.

China has already successful test fired the new next generation rocket in 2006 and in fact already build the prototype in pieces. The only delay to 2014 reason is the the new launch pad station in Hainan island is ready only in 2014. This new generation of rocket is more than enough for moon exploration. There is reason why all the talk about China moon exploration.. They have something in plan and the likely capabilities to do it.. Now we have already enter the 2012 phase.

This is still in very early stages, still another few years until it comes to fruition. Plus, anyone with even basic knowledge of the lunar program would know this rocket is still too small.

 

[escobar]

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

A fleet of Chinese and Russian navies, with three warships from each side, arrived at a joint drill area on Tuesday to conduct live-fire exercises, a move to ensure both sides' maritime interests by tackling new challenges and threats in the region.

The six-day drill has formally entered the live-fire stage, experts said.

Both navies will begin exercises including defense of air routes and maritime traffic routes, search and rescue operations and anti-submarine tactics, as well as practice on air, sea and underwater targets with cannons of various calibers on Wednesday and Thursday.

The joint drills, taking place in the Yellow Sea from April 22 to Friday, involve 25 naval vessels, 13 aircraft, nine helicopters and two special fighting groups, making it the largest joint navy drill between the two nations in recent years.

Four Russian warships from the Pacific fleet, including the aircraft carrier Varyag, are participating in the drills. Missile destroyers, missile frigates, missile boats, a support vessel and a hospital ship gathered from China's side.

The exercises are practical and advanced since both navies have devoted their main forces, such as China's Harbin guided missile destroyer and Russia's Varyag, said Zhang Junshe, deputy director of Naval Military Studies Research Institute.

Li Jie, a researcher with the same institute, told Chinese media that both countries have displayed more technologically-advanced weapons compared with the military exercise in 2005.

China and Russia have held four military exercises since 2005, some of which have involved other countries.

People's Liberation Army Navy Commander Wu Shengli said on Tuesday that the first navy drill between Chinese and Russian navies could start a regular cooperation and more diversified joint exercises under the strategic partnership.

However, the drill has unsettled China's neighbors, as another drill is being conducted by the Philippines and the United States near the South China Sea.

The PLA Daily said on Monday that unnecessary concerns over the drill could become an obstacle to forging even closer ties between China and Russia and the development of both countries.

The drill no longer focuses as usual on anti-terrorism but on safeguarding regional security, said Liang Fang, a professor at the Strategic Research Institute at the National Defense University of the PLA.

"Both China and Russia are strong maritime powers that want to use the drill to ensure the safety of their maritime territories and sea lines of communication," she said.

"The defensive exercises are common and indispensable for those close countries to coordinate their actions with each other," she added.

"Besides, this navy drill, though the biggest one between the two countries so far, is smaller than those conducted by the US and its allies."

The US and the Philippines' military exercises are scheduled to last until Friday. Philippine officials have said the exercises are not linked to the Huangyan Island standoff and are not meant to provoke China.

Philippine Department of National Defense also said on Monday that there was nothing unusual with the naval exercises between China and Russia.