China seeks military base in pakistan

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plawolf

Lieutenant General
Actually, there is. The Hashashiyyin once struck terror into the hearts of far-away European Kings, until the Mongols crushed them and broke their power once and for all.

I have always maintained that there is a military solution to any problem. But the things you would need to do to win is simply unacceptable in this day and age.

The Mongols would slaughter entire cities if they offered resistance. That is every last man, woman and child. Who in their right mind would even consider that today?

In the war on terror, terror is an actual weapon, and the 'bad guys' always have the upper hand in gaining local popular support because the locals knows that a national army will follow rules, whereas the jihadists will not. So given the choice of crossing someone who needs solid evidence before they can throw you in prison compared to someone who will happily torture and slaughter you and your entire family if he so much as suspect you might be helping the authorities, who do you think 99% of the population would rather not cross?

The only way to beat that is to be willing to go further than the jihadists. That is simply not an option.

That is why it is so critical to establish law and order after a conflict, so the jihadists does not get the opportunity to coerce the local population into working for them against you.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Well I think when a country goes through chaos and they see another country to blame for it, there's a tendency for xenophobia of all to occur especially among the extremists.

I was watching CNN last week and Erin Burnett was interviewing the next generation of Pakistanis who were college age. She asked if China were a better friend than the US and she was surprised to see them all nodding. Given how the US media and politicians have been vilifying Pakistan especially of late, I have to wonder how can she be surpised?
 

solarz

Brigadier
In that case, why did the Americans decide to release the Uighers they rounded up in training camps in Afghanistan? They were only released because it was established that they were not a threat to American interests, not because they were not terrorists.

I also think it is unwise to brand all muslim terror groups with the same brush. They might share a very similar ideology, but they have vastly different motivations and interests.

Some terrorists would only be interested in hitting American/NATO targets, while others only want to kill Russians, and others still just want to kill Chinese. These people might sometimes work together or help each other out, but they will only be doing so to further their own interests, and will not sacrifice their own cause and beliefs to help out a 'brother' from another movement.

You're right, there is a lot of nuances among these groups. They are affiliated, they share the same ideology, they most likely train together, but they have different priorities. However, I would argue that the level to which these groups are entangled are such that it is impractical, if not impossible, to discriminate between them on the basis of their objectives. That means if China cracks down on the ETIM, it will inevitably piss off Al-Qaeda as well.

Well, it is clear that if they are getting local support, it is of a completely different nature to what the anti-American groups are getting.

It is unfair to compare China to America because of simple geography. It is about as easy for these people to get into China as it is for them to get into Afghanistan, but far more difficult to get to CONUS. Look at the kind of weapons and co-ordination used in Afghanistan compared to China.

So either Chinese boarder security is freaking amazing and nothing is getting through, or the anti-China lot are not getting any of the shinny toys from the locals. The few incidents where firearms have been smuggled into XinJiang, we only hear of it because of successful PAP raids before these weapons could be used.

In all the years that the ETIM have been operating, I do not remember a single case where firearms or military grade explosives have been used.

This with the PAP raids makes me suspect that when these anti-Chinese groups does get their hands on some serious hardware, somebody has always tipped the Chinese off, and so the PAP were there waiting to greet them when they arrived in China every time.

I think you are underestimating just how valuable the genuine goodwill of Pakistanis towards China is to China's national security. Loyalty like that is not something money can ever buy, just ask the Americans.

The Taliban is able to carry out relatively sophisticated attacks because:
1- They maintain a strong power base in the Afghanistan-Pakistan border regions.
2- The Afghanistan government is corrupt and ineffectual
3- There is plenty of local Afghanistan resentment against US occupation, allowing the Taliban to draw many recruits.

The Taliban have their resources focused against the Americans, they are certainly not going to channel weapons to the ETIM for a fight on the Chinese front. Chinese border security is also far more effective than that of Afghanistan. In fact, I dare say that it *is* the case that Chinese border security is so "freaking amazing" that nothing is getting through. Of course this is combined with "intelligence" reports. The advantage that Chinese enjoy in this regard is that they *ARE*, to a certain extent, the natives of the area.

I don't disagree that the good will of the Pakistanis is invaluable, but I am pointing out that this good will does not exist everywhere in Pakistan, and it is not unconditional.

I have always maintained that there is a military solution to any problem. But the things you would need to do to win is simply unacceptable in this day and age.

The Mongols would slaughter entire cities if they offered resistance. That is every last man, woman and child. Who in their right mind would even consider that today?

I have a different view on this. You don't have to slaughter everyone, you just have to make it painful enough that it's not worth the cost of mounting attacks against you. The key here is "painful ENOUGH".

The problem with the US is that they stay in the Middle East trying to play kingmakers. That means they keep building resentment with their policy toward Israel and their support of various unpopular rulers. Although they do inflict pain, the fact that they keep breeding resentment in the area means more discontented locals feel that it's worth braving that pain to fight the US.

On the other hand, if China conducted American-style drone strikes on suspected ETIM bases, but did so with the knowledge and approval of the Pakistani government, and did not push Pakistan on anything else, I dare say the result would be far different from what the US is currently experiencing.

I should clarify that the last paragraph is just a thought experiment. Drone strikes are not the best way of rooting out terrorists, as they are by nature imprecise. They may kill the big terrorist kahuna, but they also kill his wives, sisters, cousins, children, and neighbors in the process. The far better way would be to send in strike teams.
 
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bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Not so long ago I read that about 50 countries had or was in the process of acquiring UAV technology for various peace time uses. However it would not be too difficult to adapt them to carry weapons nor implaussable to find their way into terrorist hands.
Or at some point in time ETIMterrorists happily enscounced in a hideway in some part of Pakistan, launching drone attacks on some Chinese target, and i shouldnt imagine they would be too concerned over what they hit or killed.

How would Chinese PAP forces cope with that? Having your own forces just slightly on the pakistan side of the boder is one thing, but what if these terrorist were basing themselves well inside Pakistan or other central Asian states.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
Not so long ago I read that about 50 countries had or was in the process of acquiring UAV technology for various peace time uses. However it would not be too difficult to adapt them to carry weapons nor implaussable to find their way into terrorist hands.
Or at some point in time ETIMterrorists happily enscounced in a hideway in some part of Pakistan, launching drone attacks on some Chinese target, and i shouldnt imagine they would be too concerned over what they hit or killed.

How would Chinese PAP forces cope with that? Having your own forces just slightly on the pakistan side of the boder is one thing, but what if these terrorist were basing themselves well inside Pakistan or other central Asian states.

Very unlikely scenario. We might as well wonder what if terrorists get their hands on some long range missiles.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Very unlikely scenario. We might as well wonder what if terrorists get their hands on some long range missiles.

I wouldnt be quite so sure.

One of my sons belongs to a rocket club and not so long ago they attempted a record launch into space to capture the curvature of the earth. The stuff they needed was brought off the shelf and some. of the knowledge was gleaned off the internet.
your sandal wearing supporting a a ak47 jihadist may not have the capability, but im sure they do have their followerss who might.

I suppose if one was to get hold of a powerful R.C. model airplane, strap a smartphone on it, set on google maps and relay it back to ground control its heading, and you would have a very crude drone.
I know its not comparable, but what im saying is that one shouldnt undersetimate ingenuity with a bit of improvisation.
 
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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Unless a UAV is carrying a nuke... big deal! The only reason why UAVs have been successful for the US is because they're being used in countries that have permission or they don't have adequate air defenses to counter. They aren't some awesome weapon that China has to worry about. Like the US is going to protest China launching MRLS munitions or cruise missiles against terrorists after having been attacked? If the country where the supposed attack came from resists doing anything themselves, it's an act of war. And what country is going to be that stupid being so near China? There are always charges that China commits indiscriminate human rights violating round-ups. Like China is going to think twice about collateral damage in a terrorist camp or shooting on sight anyone illegally crossing the border.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Actually, there is. The Hashashiyyin once struck terror into the hearts of far-away European Kings, until the Mongols crushed them and broke their power once and for all.

well tell me how then a RPG, AK-47 and IED can win against entire US military arsenal+Nato?

ur just giving personal opinion lets stick to facts

drone strikes have success rate of 1000:1 , thats 1000 civilians for 1 terrorist

there is no military solution, US will leave one day and China can start construction, re-building and infrastructure projects in Afghanistan, when people see results no insurgency will remain, also China is not under threat from any groups nor has any attacks taken place with IEDs or suicide bombers, dont temp them stay away from this war its not ur war unless u want to end up like USA

luckily Chinese goverment doesnt share ur views and u are a isolated case, they know best
 

solarz

Brigadier
well tell me how then a RPG, AK-47 and IED can win against entire US military arsenal+Nato?

ur just giving personal opinion lets stick to facts

drone strikes have success rate of 1000:1 , thats 1000 civilians for 1 terrorist

there is no military solution, US will leave one day and China can start construction, re-building and infrastructure projects in Afghanistan, when people see results no insurgency will remain, also China is not under threat from any groups nor has any attacks taken place with IEDs or suicide bombers, dont temp them stay away from this war its not ur war unless u want to end up like USA

luckily Chinese goverment doesnt share ur views and u are a isolated case, they know best

How about reading what other people wrote instead of going off on your own rant?

I have already spelled out why the American military strategy is not working. However, just because the Americans aren't conducting an effective campaign doesn't mean there are no military solutions.

What you proposed, construction and education, is exactly what the CCP is doing in both Xinjiang and Tibet. Yet, that still hasn't stopped separatist elements from starting riots or carrying out terrorist attacks. Care to venture an explanation for that?

In fact, the entire reason China wants PLA bases in Pakistan is to root out ETIM and its ilk, so don't come here and tell us that "China is not under threat from any groups".


The Sri Lankans' military solution to their terrorist problems worked out pretty well.
 
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MwRYum

Major
Developing economy and infrastructure would ultimately deter the populaces from joining the side of the separatists because things are cozy as it is, meanwhile disruption that'd lead to decay and poverty makes fertile ground for recruitment - that is the known formula and good reason why the Chinese gov't pour money into those regions every year, and grant incentives to the ethnic minorities to the point it generates ire among the Han majority.

Still, with the training and logistics of those groups are outside the Chinese borders there's little the Chinese gov't can do except cleanup after incidents, and a bit of crackdown here and there.

In essence, what the Chinese faces is very similar to US in Afghanistan, with the Taliban operates from the safe haven in Pakistan, perhaps with less intensity...

Even if we count in the alliance between Pakistan and China (no so much of "fair-weather friendship" which is with the US), there're a few problems to deal with before take on the terrorists:
1. Chinese have practically no experience in power projection beyond its border - we're not talking about stuff like counter-piracy expedition or evacuation of citizens in foreign soils, those were handled as special cases, what should be implemented is like those of the US, as part of national strategy.
2. The size of such deployment, not too small that they were impotent and yet not too large to trigger the ire of the host nation, ie. to create a diplomatic situation at the least of it.
3. Who's going to do it, PLA or PAP? As we all know handling insurgents and terrorists are PAP jurisdictions, PLA handles conventional enemies, but to grant the PAP mandates to operate abroad is going to be an extremely delicate matter, first would be to amend the law and undoubtedly that'd draw attention, unwanted ones to be exact.
 
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