China need a new geopolitical Doctrine ?

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escobar

Brigadier
Plus you actually need to look at some of the comparative figures between China and USA.
Approximate figures below.

  • Population: China 4x larger
  • GDP: China is 30% larger on a PPP basis. China is 30% smaller on an exchange rate basis.
  • China is a larger global trading nation
  • China has a larger consumer retail economy.
  • China has a larger manufacturing sector, which is still climbing the technology value chain.
  • China has greater R&D spending, as per the National Science Foundation reports to Congress.
  • China matching US military procurement spending, as per the latest SIPRI estimates.
  • etc etc

Nice list. I can also do a nice one showing US global strenght. So?

You get the idea.

No I don't get. All i see is that you're trying to convince yourself of something false.

You even have difficulty acknowledging China as the equal of the USA, given the statistics above.

Why would i have difficulty acknowledging a claim that is factually wrong? China gov itself recognize the reality of the power gap.
 

escobar

Brigadier
I see 2 countries; 1 is shouting a lot, very angry, but its economy is not doing well, its technology is eroding, and it's suffering from disease, internal strife, and global humiliation. The other country is calm and collected, its economy, technology, and military are growing in leaps and bounds. My natural conclusion is that the former is bending himself out of shape trying to achieve something beyond its control (the welfare of his rival) while the latter country is quiet and focused on its own development. A less mentally-capable person will just see that 1 country is shouting at the other while the other doesn't say much and conclude that the louder country more in control.

What you are responding to was literally half sentence and half equation, the least emotional form of expression. The emotion that you are feeling is clearly your own from your frustration that you will always be defeated by me in debate. I don't know why you added hypocritical but you are known to use English words that you do not understand so it's not all that surprising that it would recur when you are desperate and emotional.
You are still trying to find virtue even where there is not. You see China is calm, reality is China's diplomatic overreach

You said substance, so I gave you the trade numbers for substance. Then you said that the trade war has failed for the US, which I agree based on substance since China's goal is to make America's trade war fail to yield results. But now you imply instead that China lost? You cannot even agree with yourself but try to shift and escape whenever and wherever I prove you wrong, which happens every time. It is now clear that the hypocrite you mentioned above is, once again, yourself.
Do not make me repeat what i have already said concerning the objectives of china concerning this deal. Educate yourself more instead of living in a bubble

China is gaining land, expanding islands, and making permanent naval bases on them. The US is cursing, driving around in circles, and making announcements that they will make other announcements. You think the US has the upper hand because it has a fattest mouth? Haha Look who's as naive as he is hypocritical...

Like i said it's uninteresting to discuss with you. All you see is all you want to see to feel better.

China has never, to anyone said it will escalate, always de-escalate... all the while continuing to chase its interests relentlessly. That's the mark of excellent IR.

Yeah when it is about India, china escalating become good. So funny to see you every time trying to present yourself like being good & responsible when it is about US. Hiding weakness behind so called calm actions.

I have not tried nor found anything. I simply said that you are wrong in which people can endure the most suffering and that you may be confused simply because America has inflicted a lot of self-suffering on its people trying to attack China while China is much superior in management and thus, it has mostly shielded its people from suffering. You are the one who tried to twist things to sound like a nation suffering from its own incompetence is a good thing to prove its will. That's North Korea.

Another virtue searching. You really like that

This is a display of your hilarious hypocrisy. When the US does something and China does not respond, it is passive and weak. When China responds in kind, it is incompetent and weak.

Hypocrisy? Did i say China should not respond? I am talking about the effectiveness of CHina response.
Sanctions without clear and realist objectives is just theatrical and incompetence.

Very serious. I don't know about equal since that is a very hard thing to determine on something with as many facets to it as national power but it's clear that the US is escalating further despite already damaging itself from its previous escalation because it's desperate to change the momentum of China overtaking it. China has no such worries, which is why it's calm. So I don't know what "equal" means in this case, but I would certainly say that China is in a much better position. People with low level mental processes can really only judge a competition by who has the biggest, loudest mouth (who sounds more aggressive, who escalates more, etc...) but smarter people can see substance.

Now false virtue claiming.
 

escobar

Brigadier
True..... then US should stay in his neighborhood like every other normal country and not roam around over the globe with stick like a policeman...

US is saying it will not stay in his neighborhood. US is saying it will challenge China. So instead of saying naive and inep things you better compete and deter. Welcome in IR policy
 

escobar

Brigadier
By "interest" do you mean the rights of hegemony adventurism? Or do you refer mainly to protecting US economic prosperity and way of life?

It doesn't matter. You say China can't control US. So china can't control what US think to be its interest. So instead of wasting time talking about those interest and their virtue or not, you better think about how China could have a successfull IR strategy.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
You post is so devoid of intellectual content it doesn't even qualify as a reply much less a rebuttal to what I wrote you. A little more substance and you might ascend into the face-saving post territory.
You are still trying to find virtue even where there is not... Now false virtue claiming... Another virtue searching. You really like that
I'll just pile all of this garbage together since it's the same thing, doesn't mean anything, and is, of course, empty of all counter-argument. You don't see virtue and you don't see substance. Blind man telling others what to see LOL

You see China is calm, reality is China's diplomatic overreach
Empty repeated claim with no evidence to support and complete inability to rebut my statements. More garbage...

Do not make me repeat what i have already said concerning the objectives of china concerning this deal. Educate yourself more instead of living in a bubble
You can repeat your unsupported claims and incorrect conclusions all you want but you cannot escape being proven faulty by me each time. I am, without a doubt, more educated than you and it shows in the substance of my posts against the emptiness of yours.

Like i said it's uninteresting to discuss with you.
If I were you, I would also be uninterested in being repeatedly proven wrong and humiliated by me.

All you see is all you want to see to feel better.
At least I don't try to see events that have not even happened to try to feel better, like you do.

Yeah when it is about India, china escalating become good. So funny to see you every time trying to present yourself like being good & responsible when it is about US.
Well, when it comes to India, China got land and concessions, but it never escalated with India; it simply fought back a physical attack. China even did many things to de-escalate despite its absolute advantage over India in every measure. When it comes to the US, the escalation is substance-based instead of aggression-based and has gotten China's economy and technology to continue to close the gap with America's. In terms of results, China is becoming powerful at a rate that is far faster than either India or the US and that is a result of flexible strategy and opportunistic/adaptive approach. Results and substance are what I'm all about. Shouting and volume are all that you are about. Until you can improve your thinking to my level, you will not understand.

Hiding weakness behind so called calm actions.
So this calmness is weakness, but then when China reciprocates sanctions, that's weakness too? LOLOL How hypocritical...

As time goes on, China becomes more powerful and the US weaker in comparison. Already now, the US cannot achieve its objectives stunting China. Who should be calm and who desperate to ignite problems? I know that thinking is not your forte, but try very hard; this problem is not terribly difficult, I promise...

Hypocrisy? Did i say China should not respond? I am talking about the effectiveness of CHina response.
Sanctions without clear and realist objectives is just theatrical and incompetence.
Well, this mirrors the American move. To anybody with an ounce of common sense, it is a fair and equal reaction, even a satire of what they are doing. Neither should be effective because neither country's officials should be invested in the rival country.

Your hypocrisy is clear. When China does not respond, it is too weak to escalate. When it responds with equal force, it is incompetence. You don't have a solution and don't know what you want to see; you only like to criticize. I can say this is probably and inconsequential person trying to make himself feel better.

US is saying it will not stay in his neighborhood. US is saying it will challenge China. So instead of saying naive and inep things you better compete and deter.
That's exactly what China is doing while the US fiddles with announcements and sails in circles LOL

Welcome in IR policy
Take a seat, get your notebook and pen ready.
 
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gadgetcool5

Senior Member
Registered Member
I don't know; I'm not interested in those pointless threads. Either way, it seems you have no grasp of it from what you're saying here. What the US did to Japan was limited because that was enough to crush Japan so it had no reason to go further. Also, Japan's challenge to the US, as a leashed dog, was also very limited. China, on the other hand, challenges the US in every way at the highest level. If China was liberal and democratic, the US would make up other problems to accuse China of. Besides, China's not liberal or democratic and it will not become that for anybody or anything. The bottom line is that the only justification that the US needs to do anything to anyone is to defend its title at the top of the world. Only believably stupid people don't see that; not a single person here agrees with you.

That's because this forum caters to a relatively narrow base of members that don't represent the full diversity of opinion.

In reality, if you listen to the Americans, even the most hawkish like Mike Pompeo say they have no problem with the Chinese people, only the actions of the CPC. And having lived in America I can guarantee that this is true from what I have heard from Americans in everyday life. But don't listen to words, look at actions:

If the US is so against China, why did it establish diplomatic relations with China knowing it was the most populous nation in the world and very capable, and one day could become a wealthy competitor? Why did it allow China to export trillions and earn capital and FDI from the US and its partners? Why did it give China MFN trade status every year, welcome China into the WTO and the Multi-Fibre Agreement? Why did it sit by for 35 years as China rose to become the world's largest economy by PPP?

America did all that because it welcomed China's rise under the expectation that China would become a liberal democracy and a responsible stakeholder. And it would have continued to welcome China's rise if China had not thwarted its expectations.
 

gadgetcool5

Senior Member
Registered Member
The American position has been consistent, transparent and clear. Please see Robert Zoellick's speech from 2005:

"Some 27 years ago, Chinese leaders took a hard look at their country and didn’t like what they saw. China was just emerging from the Cultural Revolution. It was desperately poor, deliberately isolated from the world economy, and opposed to nearly every international institution. Under Deng Xiaoping, as Mr. Zheng explains, China’s leaders reversed course and decided "to embrace globalization rather than detach themselves from it."

Seven U.S. presidents of both parties recognized this strategic shift and worked to integrate China as a full member of the international system. Since 1978, the United States has also encouraged China’s economic development through market reforms.

Our policy has succeeded remarkably well: the dragon emerged and joined the world. Today, from the United Nations to the World Trade Organization, from agreements on ozone depletion to pacts on nuclear weapons, China is a player at the table.

And China has experienced exceptional economic growth. Whether in commodities, clothing, computers, or capital markets, China’s presence is felt every day.

China is big, it is growing, and it will influence the world in the years ahead.

For the United States and the world, the essential question is – how will China use its influence?"

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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
That's because this forum caters to a relatively narrow base of members that don't represent the full diversity of opinion.
Not even one person agrees with you LOLOL
In reality, if you listen to the Americans, even the most hawkish like Mike Pompeo say they have no problem with the Chinese people, only the actions of the CPC.
Those are Americans who are in denial and scared. They want to pretend that the CCP and Chinese people are fragmented and that they only need to win over a government. It's their nightmare that 1.4B people unite under that government to take the world crown. Saying that they have a problem with the CCP but not the Chinese people is delusional Americans whistling past the graveyard to calm their fears that they face 1.4B people. The truth is, the Chinese people want exactly what the CCP wants: a world-beating China under its own system.
And having lived in America I can guarantee that this is true from what I have heard from Americans in everyday life. But don't listen to words, look at actions:
LOLOL I grew up in America and I can guarantee that you have no idea what you're talking about.
If the US is so against China, why did it establish diplomatic relations with China knowing it was the most populous nation in the world and very capable, and one day could become a wealthy competitor? Why did it allow China to export trillions and earn capital and FDI from the US and its partners? Why did it give China MFN trade status every year, welcome China into the WTO and the Multi-Fibre Agreement? Why did it sit by for 35 years as China rose to become the world's largest economy by PPP?
So easy to answer your naive childish questions. All because America can earn profits from partnering with China all the while deluding themselves that their lead is so commanding that they cannot be overtaken. China has never said we would become a liberal democracy; we have always held fast that we will remain who we are. Why the sudden deterioration in relations? Cus the US just realized that its lead in the world is very mortal in China's eyes.
America did all that because it welcomed China's rise under the expectation that China would become a liberal democracy and a responsible stakeholder. And it would have continued to welcome China's rise if China had not thwarted its expectations.
America would never welcome any nation to rise above itself by any measure (as proven by their treatment of Japan) and its expectations of China are not only unreasonable but its disappointment its own fault entirely. China's right to determine its own political model is absolute and we have never lead anybody to think otherwise.
 
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