China need a new geopolitical Doctrine ?

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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Ok so if China can seperate politics from trade, why is UK banning Huawei 5G, why did Australia ban Huawei 5G, why is TSMC dropping hisilicon, why is China banning Australian iron ore, why is India boycotting Chinese products, why are manufactures moving to vietnam?
Because you're illiterate, that's why. I said China separates those when it's convenient for China. The UK/Australia did not separate them; it wasn't China's decision. TSMC was forced by American sanctions because it uses American tech. It has nothing to do with alliances; they can either drop Huawei or shut down. When it's convenient for China, it can strike at Australia's economy, as I said, when it's good for China. India is hostile and will remain so because they have a fantasy that they should rule the region instead of China; they can hang themselves on that tree. And China's economy is moving up the value chain with increases in wages, so cheaper places that are not as developed as China, like Vietnam, etc... will be more attractive in less technologically-demanding areas. Also, the US, desperate to keep its hegemony, is still quite powerful and exerting as much influence as it can. This is all pretty basic stuff I would expect an adult who is interested in politics to know. As a matter of fact, nearly all the the things you listed go back to American power being exerted in the area rather than individual grudges against China. The only answer to be more powerful than that.

Dude I don't care what people think and most people outside of Sino defence would agree with me.
Yeah, most Americans/anti-Chinese outside of SDF would agree with you that China should give up all of its claims LOL No Chinese people will tolerate throwing away pieces of territory all over the place hoping the buy friends and peace.

We are losing on trade because we are losing on the political alliance side. And jingoism is not the approach that will help.
No, you're losing an argument. We're not losing on trade; if China's losing on trade, then nobody in the world knows what winning looks like. China has always lacked alliances but grown tremendously in trade and economics; as a matter of fact, China enjoys better relations with the world than it ever did since Trump took office. Basically everything you're seeing and interpreting as China "losing" is a direct consequence of the inevitable phase of the presiding hegemon's attempts to stop the rising challenger. It is a rough patch that will have the be fought through and overcome; you cannot escape it with some lazy "soft power" nice gesture concessions. "Jingoism" is needed to educate people like you, not for any other purpose.

By the way, don't think that it escapes anyone here that while I answer ALL of your comments in a point-to-point response, you're down to 2 line replies to several paragraph answers, glossing over as much as you can get away with hoping to save face and not look like you were obliterated.
 
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Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
Why does an identity need to be simple?

China is a civilization with 5000 years of history, you can't boil that down to a few sentences!

Why does the Chinese identity need to be understood by outsiders? All other nations need to do is read China's foreign policy announcements. If certain nations refuse to believe what China says, that is their problem. The PRC does what it says, and has done so for 70 years. Those who refused to take China's words at their face value did so at their own detriment.

Perception follows self interest. Right now the world is still gravitating around the US, being the most powerful nation yet. However, we are already seeing things change before our very eyes.

That's fine. It's up to China to decide how it wants to understand itself and how it wants to project that understanding to the world. But I still think that cultural understanding helps deepen the bonds. I also think there is a desire to understand more about China in friendly countries like Pakistan, and I think that should be encouraged.
 

solarz

Brigadier
That's fine. It's up to China to decide how it wants to understand itself and how it wants to project that understanding to the world. But I still think that cultural understanding helps deepen the bonds. I also think there is a desire to understand more about China in friendly countries like Pakistan, and I think that should be encouraged.

Of course, China runs a lot of cultural exchange programs and most Chinese people love to share their culture with non-Chinese.

On a tangential note, and of no relation to you, I am particularly annoyed by non-Chinese who believe they know "everything" about Chinese culture after spending a few years in China or perhaps by having a Chinese spouse.

Not even native Chinese would claim to know "everything" about Chinese culture!
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
Yea, I've heard about the Mandarin programs in Pakistan recently, it's an elective in school now. That's good.

As for people who think they know everything about China, that's a problem all cultures face. Most outsiders equate Pakistanis with Indians and think we're all the same (which obviously pisses us off a lot lolz.) I'm the first to admit that I know very little about China, even though I've lived there and have taken a university level course. But I'm interested to learn.
 

free_6ix9ine

Junior Member
Registered Member
Because you're illiterate, that's why. I said China separates those when it's convenient for China. The UK/Australia did not separate them; it wasn't China's decision. TSMC was forced by American sanctions because it uses American tech. It has nothing to do with alliances; they can either drop Huawei or shut down. When it's convenient for China, it can strike at Australia's economy, as I said, when it's good for China. India is hostile and will remain so because they have a fantasy that they should rule the region instead of China; they can hang themselves on that tree. And China's economy is moving up the value chain with increases in wages, so cheaper places that are not as developed as China, like Vietnam, etc... will be more attractive in less technologically-demanding areas. Also, the US, desperate to keep its hegemony, is still quite powerful and exerting as much influence as it can. This is all pretty basic stuff I would expect an adult who is interested in politics to know. As a matter of fact, nearly all the the things you listed go back to American power being exerted in the area rather than individual grudges against China. The only answer to be more powerful than that.


Yeah, most Americans outside of SDF would agree with you that China should give up all of its claims LOL No Chinese people will tolerate throwing away pieces of territory all over the place hoping the buy friends and peace.

Ok so your changing your tune here. China did hit back with the Iron ore ban and what did that accomplish??? absolutely nothing. Huawei 5G is still banned.
I agree with what you said regarding China developing a specific ideology. However I don’t think we can equate Cuba and Iran has having ideology and support. Definitely China has a problems with getting their message across due to the limited media. China needs to seriously work on their media strategies.

However Cuba and Iran, even though they have supporters, are in a much worse position in terms of sanctions than China, so makes one wonder if have some support in the US makes a big difference. The main difference is if one is strong enough that the US cannot afford to attack militarily or economically. The IS can have supporters for Cuba and Iran because those countries will never come close to US power, well never say never but unlikely.

The current Cold War environment would have been present even without Xu jinping. The US fears that another country is catching up to them technologically. They will do whatever is necessary to make sure it doesn’t happen. I don’t think this is due to any specific Chinese policy, the US will use any excuse to contain China because China is simply too big to ignore. They did it to Japan, and Japan was an ally in the 1980s. So much for being in an alliance. If China was weak and the US had another enemy, you will automatically see more pro China voices in the US and western world.

I for one feel that China needs to be better at media projection, and there are a lot of improvements to be made throughout the country but considering where they were just a few years ago, i have to be impressed. That what really scares the west.
Of course, China runs a lot of cultural exchange programs and most Chinese people love to share their culture with non-Chinese.

On a tangential note, and of no relation to you, I am particularly annoyed by non-Chinese who believe they know "everything" about Chinese culture after spending a few years in China or perhaps by having a Chinese spouse.

Not even native Chinese would claim to know "everything" about Chinese culture!

And this is exactly why you need to make it more understandable. If you have to teach every foreigner a history lesson on what your country is about, is that efficient or even feasible?

Frankly, I don't even think foreigners are even interested in ancient Chinese history. Soft power is all about being relatable, interesting and to a certain extent contemporary. As an example, People want to move to America because they can relate to the ideals of individualism, freedom, capitalism, economic freedom and cultural diversity. These are the things that draw people in. Whether these things are actually true or real, is debateble in my opinion. A lot of people think America is pretty overrated which I don't disagree.

Talking about something that happened 5000 years ago may make someone who is from China super proud. But it doesn't make foreign people want to like your country or visit or support it.

It's like my Indian colleagues talking about how great ancient India religions is. Sure he is super proud of it, but do I really care all that much? No, because I don't understand it, and I'm not gonna spend time reading about how great ancient India is because it's not relevant to me. We don't live in 3000 bc.
 

free_6ix9ine

Junior Member
Registered Member
Japan is another example of soft power, that may be is more relevant to China than the US. People are interested in Japan, because they package culture which they probably copied from China a long time ago,but they make it easy for foreign people to understand and consume via manga, anime, food, etc. OF COURSE they dumb it down for foreigners, but that's exactly the point. People don't want to sit around reading a text book about Confucian philosophy when they can stream anime and be introduced to Japanese culture. It's like getting a California roll at a sushi restaurant, is a California roll real sushi? Heck no, it's a dumbed down version of sushi. But it's also a form of soft power.
 

free_6ix9ine

Junior Member
Registered Member
Soft power is all about getting people interested in learning about your culture and country. It's not about being super proud of your culture and talking down to people for not understanding it, because YOU have not made the effort of packaging it to be interesting, easily understandable and contemporary. Packaging it is YOUR responsibility not there's.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Soft power is all about getting people interested in learning about your culture and country. It's not about being super proud of your culture and talking down to people for not understanding it, because YOU have not made the effort of packaging it to be interesting, easily understandable and contemporary. Packaging it is YOUR responsibility not there's.

You obviously care more about getting other people's approval than any actual advantage for the Chinese people.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
You obviously care more about getting other people's approval than any actual advantage for the Chinese people.

Exactly and that is the fallacy people should not too concern about what other people think of China. The attractiveness of a country depend on the strength of the country itself and how the people perceive themselves. I see more and more Chinese are appreciating their own country strength whether it is culture economy or military. Here is an excellent paper by Dr Kishore Mahbubani who has better grasp of history grand sweep and a sense where it might go

Why the Trump Administration Has Helped China
Kishore Mahbubani
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June 8, 2020, 12:15 PM CDT


adc85d51cd7a5f98f25503463383243d

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Strange as it may sound,
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will miss the Trump administration, if, and when, it goes.
Undoubtedly, the Trump administration has been the most aggravating administration that China has had to deal with since the normalization process that Henry Kissinger began in 1971. It has launched a trade war that has damaged the Chinese economy a little. Restrictions have been placed on technology exports to China. A massive effort has been undertaken to cripple Huawei. Yet, the most galling move has been the effort to extradite Meng Wanzhou. Applying Western laws to Chinese citizens reminds the Chinese people vividly of the Century of Humiliation when Western laws were applied on Chinese soil.

Yet, if the
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think long-term and strategically, as they are wont to do, they could also calculate that the Trump administration
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China. Clearly, the Trump administration has no thoughtful, comprehensive and
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to manage an ever-rising China. Nor has it heeded the wise advice of key strategic thinkers, like Kissinger or George Kennan. Kennan, for example, advised that the long-term outcome of the contest with the then Soviet Union would depend on “the degree to which the United States can create among the peoples of the world” the impression of a country “which is coping with the problem of its internal life” and “which has a spiritual vitality.”

No such impression has been created by the Trump administration.
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and post-George Floyd, America is delivering the opposite impression. In relative terms, the Trump administration has raised the stature of China, which is now perceived as
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in the world.
To be fair, America’s internal problems have preceded President Donald Trump. It is the only major developed country where the income of the bottom fifty percent has gone down for a thirty-year period leading to the creation of a “sea of despair” among the white working classes. John Rawls would have been appalled to see this. Indeed, as Martin Wolf of the Financial Times says, America has become a plutocracy. By contrast, China has created a meritocratic governing system. A meritocracy could well out-perform a plutocracy.

Equally importantly, Kennan emphasized that America had to assiduously cultivate friends and allies. The Trump administration has seriously damaged relationships with friends and allies. In private, the Europeans are appalled. Walking away from the World Health Organization (WHO) when the world never needed the WHO more, especially to help poor African countries, was massively irresponsible. Not one American ally followed the United States out of WHO. The Trump administration has also threatened tariffs on allies like Canada and Mexico, Germany and France. All this does not mean that the rest of the world will rush to embrace China. Indeed, the Europeans have developed new reservations about working closely with China.

Yet, there is no doubt that diminishing global respect for the United States opens more geopolitical space for China. Madeleine Albright once said “We are the indispensable nation. We stand tall and we see further than other countries into the future.” The Trump administration may succeed in making America a dispensable nation, presenting another geopolitical gift to China.
The Trump administration has also ignored another wise piece of advice of George Kennan: to not insult one’s adversaries. No other Administration has insulted China as much as the Trump administration. Trump has said “China’s pattern of misconduct is well known. For decades, they have ripped off the United States like no one has ever done before.”

In theory, such insults could have damaged the standing of the Chinese government in the eyes of its own people. The effect has been the opposite. According to the latest Edelman Trust Barometer, the country where the people have the highest trust in their government is China. It is 90 percent. This is not surprising. For the vast majority of Chinese people, the past forty years of social and economic development have been the best in four thousand years. Kennan spoke of domestic “spiritual vitality.” China enjoys it today. A Stanford University psychologist, Jean Fan, has observed that “in contrast to America’s stagnation, China’s culture, self-concept, and morale are being transformed at a rapid pace—mostly for the better.”

The Chinese people are also acutely aware that China has handled the coronavirus crisis better than America. If America had the same rate of fatalities as China, then it would have had one thousand deaths instead of one-hundred thousand. Against this backdrop, the constant insults hurled at China have only provoked a strong nationalistic response, boosting the standing of the Chinese government. One small but critical point needs to be added here: no other government in the world hurls insults at China. America stands alone in this dimension, ignoring once again Kennan’s valuable advice: “And if there were any qualities that lie within our ability to cultivate that might set us off from the rest of the world, these would be the virtues of modesty and humility.”

If he were alive today, then Kennan would first advise his fellow Americans to step back and thoughtfully work out a comprehensive long-term strategy before plunging into a major geopolitical contest against China. Any such strategy, heeding the advice of thinkers like Sun Tzu, would first require a comprehensive evaluation of the relative strengths and weaknesses of both parties.
There is no doubt that America retains many magnificent strengths. It remains the most successful society humanity has created since human history began. No other society has sent a man to the moon. No other society has produced a Google and Facebook, Apple and Amazon, in short order. Even more remarkably, two of its biggest corporations, Google and Microsoft, are run by foreign-born citizens. No major Chinese corporation is run by a non-Chinese. China can tap the talents of 1.4 billion people; America can tap the talent of 7.8 billion, including talented Chinese. It would be a huge mistake for any Chinese leader to underestimate America. Fortunately, or unfortunately, that is not likely to happen.
 

free_6ix9ine

Junior Member
Registered Member
You obviously care more about getting other people's approval than any actual advantage for the Chinese people.

LOL. "Soft power" definition is literally getting the approval of other people. So having "Soft Power" is bad for China and Chinese people by your logic?? Being proud of your country is good as well. These two things can and do coexist.
 
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