"China is the biggest espionage threat to the US"

Blob

New Member
...according to the nation's top spy-catchers. :nana:
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Newsnight gained exclusive access to the FBI's nerve centre in Washington.

Hundreds of counter-intelligence officers have been deployed across the country to combat Chinese attempts to target America's military and commercial technology.

Rudy Guerin, the FBI's top Chinese spyhunter says his team is convinced it is fighting "the biggest long term threat to the USA".

"I have agents working here who worked street gangs, drug cases, white collar crime and to everyone of them they say this is the most important work we have done at the FBI."

A different threat

It is a very different battle to the Cold War, and there are growing concerns about China's increasing economic and military might. But the government faces charges of racial profiling and is having trouble making some of its cases stick.

Dave Szady, former Assistant Director for the FBI's Counterintelligence Division, says the nature of the threat is different to the one the country faced from the Soviet Union.

"Now the threat can be as serious in Idaho, Iowa and Mississippi or Alabama or any state because that's where the Research and Development is. That's where the secrets are, that's where the cutting edge technology is being developed and that's where you go to get it."

Conviction

One Chinese agent was convicted last month in Florida after months of investigation by customs agents came together.

Ko-Suen Moo, a Chinese businessman, came to a beach front hotel last November to finalise a deal to buy an engine for an F-16 jet fighter. Unknown to him he was meeting an American informer and an undercover agent.

Moo was tried and found guilty of acting as an agent of a foreign power. His operation was backed by millions of dollars which he then tried to use to buy his way out of jail.

Tony Mangione, the Agent in charge of US Immigration and Customs, says Moo's behaviour was "extraordinary" and demonstrated that "Moo was more important than we thought he was".

'Shot-gun approach'

The magnet for those searching for hi-tech secrets is California's Silicon Valley. Newsnight gained access to the FBI's biggest effort to counter Chinese espionage, which occupies an unmarked floor in a Silicon Valley office park.

The FBI agent in charge, Don Przybyla has no doubt where the principal threat comes from. He says "the majority are coming from China. They are using a shot-gun approach, flooding the Silicon Valley with engineers and scientists.

"The Chinese have found success in obtaining the technology through stealing, essentially. Once successful they'll send more people over to do the same thing."

One software company that found itself targeted is 3DGeo. It deals with remote sensing equipment - searching for oil and gas from space. They had a contract with the Chinese national petrol company which included training opportunities in the US for six staff. The last two sent to California decided to help themselves to the company's secrets.

FBI agents arrested Yan Ming Shan as he attempted to board a flight to China. The boss of 3DGeo says if Shan had succeeded, "he'd be getting some technology that we keep guarded out into the industry and revealing secrets - that's something any company involved in Intellectual Property wants to avoid."

Witch hunt?

But was this espionage for commercial gain or something guided by Chinese spy chiefs nationally? Those who've studied the intelligence say there is a prioritised list of technologies the Chinese are seeking.

Through the normal course of investigation we have to prove foreign agents of a foreign power are behind this," says Rudy Guerin.

"Most of these institutes have some kind of tie to the Chinese Government, army and in some cases the Ministry of State Security."

In San Francisco some are nervous that the FBI may target their community. There have been several failed attempts to prosecute commercial espionage cases, leaving the lawyer for some of the acquitted Chinese wondering whether the FBI isn't unleashing a witch hunt.

Criminal defense lawyer Thomas Nolan says he is seeing "a lot of cases that are overblown, cases that should not be prosecuted". He thinks that "they are trying to stop Chinese people trying to do business [in America]".

Spy-phobia

The case of Wen Ho Lee, a scientist at Los Alamos nuclear laboratory, accused seven years ago of espionage, showed the dangers of spy-phobia.

Lee was acquitted and this month the government and several news organisations paid him damages. His case created fears among Chinese Americans of profiling, and taught the FBI a lesson.

David Szady says, "the FBI did make mistakes" but that "those errors have been corrected in terms of looking at the Chinese threat in the future".

When asked to respond to the investigators' charges, staff at the Chinese Embassy in Washington declined to give us an interview but a spokesman told us:

"We do not conduct espionage in this country and the accusations are totally groundless."

But while the commercial ties remain open so will the spying and America's best defence may ultimately prove to be the speed and variety of it's innovation.
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Roger604

Senior Member
This is all a big misleading smear campaign:

They equate acquisition of knowledge (i.e. learning) with spying.

You can't stop people from learning new technologies just because you want to maintain your edge! China and the Chinese people want to learn: there's nothing wrong with that!

So they go around targeting ethnic Chinese -- including even US-citizens.

But the irony is that that US government actually can't do anything about it.

The fact is that the large numbers of ethnic Chinese in USA actually contribute an enormous amount of human capital to the US economy. Look at Silicon Valley. Look at any of the top US universities.

So the US gains a whole lot by having a lot of ethnic Chinese living and working in the US. The US benefits from brain drain from Asia. So what if they decide to take what they have learned (and probably invented) back to the "motherland"? Asia is basically "earning back" a small fraction of what it lost via the brain drain to developed countries.

You can't exclude ethic Chinese. It would be catastrophic for the US if all the ethnic Chinese leaves. Even the citizens would be pressured to move to the land of their ancestors if they faced rampant discrimination.

You just gotta accept that Chinese people are learning and advancing, and that China itself rises on the shoulders of the ethnic Chinese living in developed countries. Any attempt to stop this would simply cause a massive exodus of highly trained people to go to China.
 
D

Deleted member 675

Guest
Roger604 said:
They equate acquisition of knowledge (i.e. learning) with spying.

I don't know the particulars, but I think they would be quite happy if Chinese merely learnt how to make things themselves.

The issue is them learning specific details of inventions, technology, etc that has been patented or whatever. There is a difference between learning Physics or Engineering and copying designs for things, which are then used to make a competing product, undermines a technological advantage you have, etc.

"Learning" normally means studying something in theory or practice so that you have the ability to operate yourself. "Acquiring" knowledge by taking the short cut and simply copying something is stealing. It's certainly within any country's rights to stop that happening.

Whether this fear is justified is another question. But it certainly isn't about objecting to Chinese studying/working in the US at all.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
industrial spying has been around since adam was a cowboy. In the past big industrial firms spied on each other eg ford spying on GM. GM on Chrysler so on and so on/ I remember decades ago when ford tractors took Massey Ferguson Technology and applied to thir own tractors
 

Big-E

Bug Driver
VIP Professional
Roger604 said:
This is all a big misleading smear campaign:

They equate acquisition of knowledge (i.e. learning) with spying.

You can't stop people from learning new technologies just because you want to maintain your edge! China and the Chinese people want to learn: there's nothing wrong with that!

So they go around targeting ethnic Chinese -- including even US-citizens.

But the irony is that that US government actually can't do anything about it.

The fact is that the large numbers of ethnic Chinese in USA actually contribute an enormous amount of human capital to the US economy. Look at Silicon Valley. Look at any of the top US universities.

So the US gains a whole lot by having a lot of ethnic Chinese living and working in the US. The US benefits from brain drain from Asia. So what if they decide to take what they have learned (and probably invented) back to the "motherland"? Asia is basically "earning back" a small fraction of what it lost via the brain drain to developed countries.

You can't exclude ethic Chinese. It would be catastrophic for the US if all the ethnic Chinese leaves. Even the citizens would be pressured to move to the land of their ancestors if they faced rampant discrimination.

You just gotta accept that Chinese people are learning and advancing, and that China itself rises on the shoulders of the ethnic Chinese living in developed countries. Any attempt to stop this would simply cause a massive exodus of highly trained people to go to China.

I don't blame the PRC for planting spies, if we were lacking in technology we would do the same. But please acknowledge it for what it is, stealing not learning. Learning means you actualy take the time and money to R&D a project yourself. Not leaching off others money and hard work. If you want to be the military technologic welfare case of the world then I say you should think more highly of yourselves. Stop stealing and start R&D your own projects or you will continue to be behind the other developed defense industries of the world. In the long run your only hurting yourselves.
 
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eecsmaster

Junior Member
why reinvent the wheel? The US and the USSR benefited significantly from stolen German designs. Hell, the Nene was stolen by USSR to equip the MiG-15.
 

Player 0

Junior Member
Big-E said:
I don't blame the PRC for planting spies, if we were lacking in technology we would do the same. But please acknowledge it for what it is, stealing not learning. Learning means you actualy take the time and money to R&D a project yourself. Not leaching off others money and hard work. If you want to be the military technologic welfare case of the world then I say you should think more highly of yourselves. Stop stealing and start R&D your own projects or you will continue to be behind the other developed defense industries of the world. In the long run your only hurting yourselves.

Actually, it will most likely speed up the development of the R&D industry in China, taking advanced western technology will give Chinese researchers an example of a modern system, and useing the basic ideas and principles of the design, they can take the technology, reverse engineer it and develop their own advanced technology.

It's not that uncommon, in fact it's really quite the norm, most modern day technology is reverse engineered from WWII Germany.
 

Kampfwagen

Junior Member
That's true. The Assault Rifle, MAR-PAT, The Space Shuttle...The VW Bug....

"German Egineering in the House, Yah!" :roll: Of course, there is a good portion of WW2-German tech that was bassed off of stolen technology made by the Russians.

Seriously though, back on subject.

The PLA is basicaly a start-up army. Nearly everything they use was developed somewhere else, and what they developed is likely 50-70% bassed on something developed somewhere else. But that is industry. Very few ideas these days are new ones, especialy in military circles. Although it might be stealing, how many ideas do you think we stole from the Russians during the Cold War for our militaries, and vice-versa?

But overall, it sounds like more mis-placed Sino-Phobia. I imagine that any Chinese-American who reads this is likely to be vastly offended.
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
eecsmaster said:
why reinvent the wheel? The US and the USSR benefited significantly from stolen German designs. Hell, the Nene was stolen by USSR to equip the MiG-15.

The nene wasnt stolen, the british even gamve them to the soviets in a gesture of goodwill. I agree, stealing technology does not neccesarily mean you do not have the background knowlegde for it, it simply speeds development time.

All this reminds me of Japanese internment...
 

Sea Dog

Junior Member
VIP Professional
MIGleader said:
The nene wasnt stolen, the british even gamve them to the soviets in a gesture of goodwill. I agree, stealing technology does not neccesarily mean you do not have the background knowlegde for it, it simply speeds development time.

All this reminds me of Japanese internment...

That's a fair statement. It will probably get you to a higher level of military capability at least. But as I've said before, when you steal or reverse engineer as a basis for development, you miss out on alot of the developmental know how that went into the R&D. There are things the original innovators m probably learned that you never will. And your mastery of the technology will never be truly proficient. These are lessons you may (probably will) have to go back and relearn. Especially if you are planning on modifying existing technologies. And today's technologies are much more complex than an old German WWII sub.;)

Roger604 said:
But the irony is that that US government actually can't do anything about it.

The fact is that the large numbers of ethnic Chinese in USA actually contribute an enormous amount of human capital to the US economy. Look at Silicon Valley. Look at any of the top US universities.

You can't exclude ethic Chinese. It would be catastrophic for the US if all the ethnic Chinese leaves. Even the citizens would be pressured to move to the land of their ancestors if they faced rampant discrimination.

The USA definitely is pulling alot of talent and brains out of Asia. And very smart Chinese citizens do make wonderful contributions to the USA. But you're numbers are wrong. I live in California and currently work for a Bay Area company. I read Bay Area tech journals regularly. The amount of Chinese in high tech fields in the USA is overshadowed by South Asian Indians by at least 7 fold. There are more native White/Caucasian engineers innovating in the USA than Chinese ones also. And the good news is that the USA doesn't intend to exclude anybody, including Chinese. While Chinese make excellent contributions, the USA would not fold without them. Even in my company we have less than 4 out of close to 150.

BTW, my statements here are not to minimize Chinese people in the USA. The guy who sits behind me is a Chinese ground systems engineer and a great friend at that. And also very pro-USA. This post is just to shed some real light into the actual situation.
 
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