China helping Iran to upgrade F-4 Phantoms

chuck731

Banned Idiot
Re: China helping iran to upgrade F-4 aircraft

These are not what Iran needs. Iran obviously has the ability to gain these equipment, as seen on their recent Q313, but their main force of aircraft are simply outdated. They need new planes.

Iran needs fully modern surface based air defence most urgently of all. If anyone is interested in genuinely help Iran build credible defence against the US they would have delivered a few battery of good SAMs by now. The fact no one has suggests no one is truly interested in irritating the US over Iran, so no one is going to give them any state of the art war planes either. Everyone is just posturing and keeping channels open in case the wind blowing from Washington changes.

One has no idea exactly what is in Q313, or whether it works at any level at all.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Re: China helping iran to upgrade F-4 aircraft

Theoretically yes , practically Shias are being massacred by LeJ with little effective response from Pakistani authorities .Also , as I said , Pakistan receives lot of aid from US and Saudi Arabia , both countries being enemies of Iran .

That was in 1971 , before Iranian revolution , when Iran was ally of US .

So all of a sudden you know more about my country than me? What you just said is not true end of
 

Franklin

Captain
Here is the shopping list of Iran under the Shah. If the Islamic revolution has happened a year or two later then Iran would have a whole lot more goodies like more F-14's, F-16's and Kidd class destroyers. But its seems that Iran under the Shah did very little in terms of domestic arms development. And it seems most of the indigenous capabilities of Iran today has been developed under the current Islamic leadership. And he was interested in aircraft carriers and nuclear weapons too.

When the Pahlavi dynasty came through power the Qajar dynasty was already weak from years of war with Russia. The standing Persian army was almost non-existent. The new king Reza Shah Pahlavi, was quick to develop a new military. In part, this involved sending hundreds of officers to European and American military academies. It also involved having foreigners re-train the existing army within Iran. In this period the Iranian Air Force was established and the foundation for a new Navy was laid.

Following Germany's invasion of the USSR in June 1941, Britain and the Soviet Union became allies. Both saw the newly opened Trans-Iranian Railroad as a strategic route to transport supplies from the Persian Gulf to the Soviet region. In August 1941, Britain and the USSR invaded Iran and deposed Reza Shah Pahlavi in favor of his son Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi. Following the end of the Second World War Iran's independence was respected and both countries withdrew.

Following a number of clashes in April 1969, international relations with Iraq fell into a steep decline, mainly due to a dispute over the Shatt al-Arab waterway in the 1937 Algiers Accord. Iran abrogated the 1937 accord and demanded a renegotiation which ended completely in its favor. Furthermore, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi embarked on an unprecedented modernization program for the armed forces. In many cases Iran was being supplied with advanced weaponry even before it was supplied to the armies of the countries that developed it. The Iranian military, while very well armed and trained at this point was totally reliant on external suppliers for its equipment. By 1978 Iran had the worlds 5th strongest and largest army and was the clear undisputed regional superpower. During this period of strength Iran protected its interests militarily in the region: In Oman, the Dhofar Rebellion was squashed. In November 1971 Iranian forces seized control of three uninhabited but strategic islands at the mouth of the Persian Gulf.

In the 1960s as the countries oil revenues began to flow in, and diplomatic relations were established in many countries, Iran began to expand its military. In the 1960s it purchased Canada's fleet of 90 Canadair Sabre planes equipped with AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles. These airplanes were later sold to Pakistan. Other purchases in the 1960s included 9K11 Malyutka anti-tank missiles from Russia, 4 minesweepers from the USA approximately 1000 howitzers from Canada, USA, Sweden, and Russia, as well as 100 American M48 Patton tanks and 110 T-54/55 Russian tanks. They purchased hundreds of American M113 armored personnel carrier and Mk 19 grenade launcher from the USA as well as 1425 BTR-40/BTR-50/BTR-60 from the Russians.

By the time the 1970s came and Iran had the ninth largest economy on Earth, the Shah set about modernizing Iran's military. He did this through billions of dollars of some of the most sophisticated arms available. Iran's purchases included 79 F-14 Tomcats, 400 M60 Patton tanks, 354 McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II planes and Northrop F-5 fighting planes, hundreds of support and attack helicopters (Boeing CH-47 Chinook, Bell UH-1N Twin Huey, Mil Mi-8 and Mil Mi-17) 12 Lockheed P-3 Orion planes, 2 American destroyers, (USS Zellars and USS Stormes) and 4 Hengam landing craft. 1 British destroyer (HMS Sluys), 4 British frigates (Alvand class frigate), 8 Bayandor class corvette from the USA, 2 Gearing class destroyer, 8 light repair ships from Germany, 16 Osa class missile boat from the Soviet Union, 200 ZSU-23-4 artillery vehicles, 300 American Bell AH-1 SuperCobra helicopters, thousands of laser guided missiles, 500 M109 howitzer, 24 MQM-107 Streaker drones, 30000 Tow missiles as well as thousands of air to air missiles such as the AIM-54 Phoenix, AGM-65 Maverick and the AIM-9 Sidewinder. Iran had the largest fleet of hovercraft in the world and one of the worlds largest fleet of helicopters. Iran had ordered tens of thousands of missiles including M47 Dragon anti tank missiles, SS.12/AS.12 surface to air missiles MIM-23 Hawk anti aircraft, Sea Killer anti ship missiles, Mark 80, 82 and 83 bombs, Rapier anti-aircraft missiles and RIM-66B Standard-1MR SAM missiles, and Strela-2/SA-7 Grail SAM missiles. They ordered 1200 Chieftain tanks from the British. Iran ordered large quantities of medium and heavy artillery ranging in the tens of thousands and to this day has the largest stockpile of these types of weapons in the Middle East. From Russia it ordered many transport trucks and 300 BM-21 Grad multiple rocket launchers.

By the time that the revolution had come Iran was manufacturing in collaboration with Americans working in Iran TOW missiles and Bell 204, Bell 205 and Bell 214 helicopters. Iran was also manufacturing with the help of the Soviets RPG-7, SA-7, and the BM-21 Grad. It had almost 500,000 soldiers in its rank and was ordering tens of billions in weapons. All of the arms deals listed below were cancelled following the revolution.

From the USA an incredible order for more than $15 billion in fighter jets were placed, for 300 F-16 Fighting Falcons, 16 McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II RF-4E reconnaissance planes and a further 71 Grumman F-14 Tomcats on top of the 79 that had arrived. All of these orders were due in 1980. Other orders included 250 McDonnell Douglas F/A-18 Hornet, 90 F-15 Eagles, 70 Fairchild A-10 attack bombers all of which were due by 1985.

In the way of helicopters, Iran had ordered some 500 attack and transport helicopters in a $3 billion deal, in an attempt to add to its fleet of 700 attack and transport helicopters. These included the Boeing AH-64 Apache and Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawk as well as further Boeing CH-47 Chinook helicopters. Several launch pads with very advanced radar systems were planned to be built.

A massive order was made by the Shah of Iran in an attempt to modernize the Iranian Imperial Navy. By 1980 the Iranian Navy was due to get 4 Kidd class destroyers equipped with Standard missiles, Harpoon missiles, Phalanx CIWSs and Mark 46 torpedoes, 6 Spruance class destroyer equipped with Asroc launchers, Harpoon missiles, and Sea Sparrow missiles, 3 used Tang class submarine (not paid for, donated by US Navy) equipped with sub Harpoon missiles and several older landing crafts. By 1985 the navy was due to receive a further order including the 10 used Knox-class frigates equipped with Harpoon launchers, and Standard missiles and 2 new Tarawa class amphibious assault ships equipped with 2 Mark 45 guns, 4 Sea Sparrow Systems, capable of carrying 6 British Aerospace Sea Harrier and 20 Sikorsky CH-53 Sea Stallions. Also on this list were 2 new Ticonderoga class cruisers equipped with Harpoon missiles, RIM-7 missiles, Asroc and the Vertical Launching system and 2 Iwo Jima-class amphibious assault ships (not paid for, donated by US Navy) capable of carrying 25 helicopters. The USA and Iran had agreed a deal for Iran to purchase 9 used Belknap class cruisers equipped with Harpoon missiles, Standard missiles and an Asroc launcher. Large bases, hangars and ports were to be built to accommodate these purchases.

A order were placed for several types of tanks and armored personnel carriers such as the M551 Sheridan and the M113 armored personnel carrier equipped with TOW missiles. Iran placed an order for 10 new Boeing E-3 Sentry (AWACS), and when finding the USA reluctant to sell made it known that Britain was interested. To refill their vast air force they had ordered 12 Boeing 707 tankers capable of refueling planes in midair. Iran had ordered tens of thousands of various missiles from the USA and Britain some which came but the majority never did.

A further 500 M109 howitzer's, 400 M60 Patton A3 tanks were ordered in a deal worth under 1 billion. 3000 trucks and 6000 Jeeps were being manufactured in Iran with the help of the USA were on their way to the front as well as a booming technological industry. The last known orders were for several planes full of light weapons and ammunition's.

The Iranians placed a $7 billion in ordering 2000 Challenger tanks from the British along with a further 300 Chieftain tanks and 250 FV101 Scorpion light tanks. A $3 billion order was placed for 3 Invincible class aircraft carrier able to carry 18 jets and 4 helicopters and the aircraft carrier's to be equipped with Sea Sparrow missiles and Goalkeeper CIWS. Included in this order were 6 Type 42 destroyer's equipped with Harpoon missiles, a Sea Dart missile system and Sea Wolf missiles. Along with this order were several minesweepers, patrol boats and further SR.N6 military hovercrafts. Iran also had contracted them for training, construction of bases and further development of Iranian made military products. After the USA, Britain was Iran's largest arms supplier. This trend would continue with many other countries in the Middle East such as Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates.

From the Dutch Iran, ordered 8 Kortenaer class frigate's equipped with Harpoon missiles, Sea Sparrow missiles, and Mark 46 torpedoes. Iran had ordered from the Germans 6 Type 206 submarine's and 6 Type 209 submarine's submarines to be equipped with sub Harpoon missiles and from the French 12 La Combattante IIa class fast attack craft's equipped with Exocet missiles, of which 2 arrived. From Japan 4 mine layers were ordered but only was delivered the Iran Ajr, which was subsequently captured by the USA in the Iran-Iraq war.

Most of the orders placed from Russia were lighter weaponry such as arms and trucks. They had placed an order for 6 anti submarine Grisha class corvette's, 400 ASU-85 anti tank guns, 400 BMP-1 light tank and storage facilities and a further 200 ZSU-23-4 artillery vehicles.

The Americans had actually started construction on missile sites to guard the Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean which involved Iran buying missiles like the P-15 Termit from Russia, Exocet from France, 9K115 Metis from Russia, MIM-104 Patriot from USA, and the Tomahawk (missile) from the USA. These missiles and their launch sites which were jointly built by the USA (80%) and the Europeans (20%) would make Iran capable of defending itself from any seaborne, land or airborne attack.

When the Carter administration turned down Iran's request for nuclear capable missiles, they turned to the Israelis. They were working on the Project Flower ballistic missiles with Israel, and had already begun purchasing 1 billion worth of Israeli light arms as well as expressing interest in an upgraded Mirage V, the IAI Kfir and the Gabriel (missile). Other orders included radars, and electromagnetic warfare technology.

Should the orders have been completed Iran would have been the undisputed great-power in the region and would have had the world's third most powerful military. At the same time Iran began construction on a few military bases including the Chah Bahar military complex. At this time Iran was purchasing over $20bn in nuclear stations, 8 locations would be built by the Americans, 6 by the Germans and 2 by the French, for its 36,000 MW nuclear project which could produce enough uranium each year for 700-800 warheads. By 1985 Iran had planned to stop ordering military equipment and would have been able to field one of the most powerful armies in the world.

Before the Iranian revolution of 1979, Iran contributed to United Nations peacekeeping operations. Iran joined ONUC in the Congo in the 1960s, and ten years later, Iranian troops joined UNDOF on the Golan Heights.


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andyhugfan

Banned Idiot
Here is the shopping list of Iran under the Shah. If the Islamic revolution has happened a year or two later then Iran would have a whole lot more goodies like more F-14's, F-16's and Kidd class destroyers. But its seems that Iran under the Shah did very little in terms of domestic arms development. And it seems most of the indigenous capabilities of Iran today has been developed under the current Islamic leadership. And he was interested in aircraft carriers and nuclear weapons too.



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My mind is blown.... so many weapons, Iraq would've never dared to touch Iran
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Even in its prime F4 was more bomber then fighter. It was built that way and no Mount of upgrades Russian, Iranian, American, Chinese, Israeli, Korean or any other will change that. The top Iranian guns will remain the F14 tomcat and graciously donated Iraqi SU.27. The Iranian indigenous fighter program seems locked in the ultra lightweight class centered at F5. Q313 does not break that lock. Everything about the concept seems geared to continue the "midget" fighter track. Perhaps that is the Iranian air forces mission concept for air defense a large number of small light fighters to swarm intruders each packing a light load of missiles maybe two archer class.
 

hardware

Banned Idiot
Here is the shopping list of Iran under the Shah. If the Islamic revolution has happened a year or two later then Iran would have a whole lot more goodies like more F-14's, F-16's and Kidd class destroyers. But its seems that Iran under the Shah did very little in terms of domestic arms development. And it seems most of the indigenous capabilities of Iran today has been developed under the current Islamic leadership. And he was interested in aircraft carriers and nuclear weapons too.



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shah look like some rich over grown boy on toys buying spree.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
It was a different time. The cold war was at its coldest. The Russian influence in the middle east was at its peak. After all the Russians back door leads right to the middle east particularly Iran who's boarders with Russia were then larger. So the us wanted allies parked on Russia's stoop. Iran and the Us had a great relationship. Both were making money hand over fist off Persian oil, of course it was not perfect. The Iranian imperial government was far from humane with political opponents, rights were infringed upon a good modern analogy would be the Saudi royals. The revolution took place the US shielded the Shaw and Iran went from one cruel government to a worse one. Out of the frying pan into the fire.
but that is all off topic.
the Iranian air force has been keeping there jets up to par unlike say the Cuban air force. In fact I know a blog that posted pictures of there new paint scheme. Splinter.http://aviationintel.com/2013/08/12/iranian-tomcats-go-splinter/
I suspect the Iranian F4s look like these jets.
 
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kroko

Senior Member
I appears that in march this year there was an encounter betwen an iranian F-4 and a american F-22. According to this report, the F-22 was able to get under the F-4 undetected to check its weapons load.

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I dont think that any upgrading will make a difference regarding F-4 capabilities. The plane is quite simply outdated.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Even in its prime F4 was more bomber then fighter. It was built that way and no Mount of upgrades Russian, Iranian, American, Chinese, Israeli, Korean or any other will change that. The top Iranian guns will remain the F14 tomcat and graciously donated Iraqi SU.27. The Iranian indigenous fighter program seems locked in the ultra lightweight class centered at F5. Q313 does not break that lock. Everything about the concept seems geared to continue the "midget" fighter track. Perhaps that is the Iranian air forces mission concept for air defense a large number of small light fighters to swarm intruders each packing a light load of missiles maybe two archer class.

Corrections!

1) F-4s served as air dominance fighters during the Vietnam War. Since it had a high thrust to weight it was able to turn with the likes of Mig-17s and Mig-19s despite having a heavier weight, and was primarily setback by the lack of an internal cannon during early phases of the war. Later on they replaced the F-105s and served in Wild Weasel roles, but this doesn't make it more of a bomber than fighter. It was designed as a fighter/interceptor and having a heavy weapons load helped ease its transition to a strike role.

2) Iraqi pilots fleeing to Iran during the Gulf War flew MIG-29s, not Su-27s. As a matter of fact the relatively poor showings of Fulcrums during the Gulf War was one of the factors that convinced the PLAAF to go for Flankers instead.
 

Dizasta1

Senior Member
With regards to the Al Quwwa al Jawwiya al Iraqiya (Iraqi Air Force), the following aircraft were flown in to Iran for fear of being destroyed:

1. Mirage F1/EQ (Dassault) - 24 aircraft
2. MiG-23/ML Flogger (Mikoyan) - 7 aircraft
3. Su-25/K Frogfoot (Sukhoi) - 7 aircraft
4. MiG-29/A Fulcrum (Mikoyan) - 4 aircraft

It is also reported that two dozen Su-24/MK Fencers were also flown into Iran during the war, to escape from being shot-down or destroyed.
 
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