China Ballistic Missiles and Nuclear Arms Thread

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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
What? You realize that nuclear weapons are far stronger then conventional weapons? Do you think any US leadership would tolerate the loss of a hundred cities? Why in the world would China need to annihilate western Europe as well? Did western Europe nuke them? Russia retains so many nuclear warheads because they, like the US, have a counter-force strategy, where they need to target US nuclear infrastructure as well as cities, China has sworn off the counter-force strategy by declaring a no-first use policy. You are certainly dumber then Chinese strategic planners, when you apparently don't notice this. The "secondary MAD" strategy you are referring to is known as a "survivable second strike" by people who know what they are talking about, and it is certainly enough for China, considering the US has never tried anything resembling nuclear blackmail. Those "precarious assumptions" you refer to don't exist, the no first use policy is based on rock solid strategic reasoning that you would understand if you read anything about it, including the article Hendrik posted. China probably does not have "WAY more than 300 warheads" because it does not NEED a massive stockpile of weapons because Chinese strategic planners are not retarded.

I understand this debate has been quite the topic in China as well recently and created a lot of controversy but I'll address your points.

1. I do realise nukes are stronger so what though? 300 isn't enough when some might fail, many will get intercepted, and a huge portion will get destroyed in first strike. We're talking a retaliation to first strike assuming early warning fails to get all missiles into the air.

2. No I don't think they'll tolerate hundreds of cities lost (they don't have hundreds of cities <1M population anyway) but that's not what's being talked about. I believe it takes thousands of warheads of achieve this. With 300, China would be lucky to take a few cities.

3. Because MAD calls for all associated stakeholders to be dragged in. It's principle. If all missiles are on the US, what if US government commands are actually originating elsewhere? What if the US is just the henchman? Europe is not a lesser antagonist and involving them also ensures they are responsible for preventing their "allies" from launching first strikes. MAD works with some nuance. Not only is "outside" parties involved, but they are all stakeholders because when one dies, all die with them and that principle prevents first use or at least gives consequence to third parties in an effort to get them involved in actively pursuing de-escalation.

4. Survivable second strike is good enough?? lol come on. It's never even been tried and thank God. How could one who "knows what they're talking about" seriously even entertain a flimsy theory like that as if it's 100% solid.

5. Dude please. I understand the nuances of no first use. Instead of continuing to write "the no first use policy is based on rock solid strategic reasoning that you would understand if you read anything about it" why don't you actually explain it so that we can pick it apart slowly. Why is no first use solid strategy in the context of providing superior deterrence?

6. I explained why having a small stockpile is stupid. You just said having more than 300 warheads is beyond retarded. Explain it like I explained my perspective.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Current American missile interception is not able to deal with a Chinese retaliatory strike. Chinese missiles are MIRV'ed and no American missile system is anything resembling effective against MIRVs or even the most basic of decoys. This being said, if American developments in missile defense do advance beyond the second-rate systems and mostly ineffective they currently have, it WOULD justify an increase in the Chinese warhead arsenal. Until this happens, however, China does not need more warheads then they currently have.

That's a baaaaaaaaaaad assumption to make. Very arrogant. Americans have been playing against MIRV and MaRV tech for many decades. They've even disclosed some very impressive BMD technology that are much older than I am. Can only imagine what they've got these days that they have not told you.

I supposed the Russians are complete morons for insisting on >5000 warheads then?
 

FangYuan

Junior Member
Registered Member
By the way, the effect of nuclear weapon is vastly overestimated.

The explosion damage can be vastly contained by modern cemented buildings and underground structures, whilst the radiation damage is nowhere near the damage caused by the accident of a civil nuclear reactors, actually the radiation damage of today's nuclear bomb can only last for 2 weeks, after that it is pretty safe for human to enter the impact region, even without any protection.

Modern day nuclear bomb only contain several kilograms' radiation stuff, comparing to hundreds of tonnes found in nuclear reactors.

So there wont be any long-lasting effect of nuclear explosion


Therefore, there is no way to determine victory or defeat with just one attack. Nuclear war should be launched in several stages. First wipe out 90% of the enemy population, 2nd and 3rd to ensure the enemy's population does not exceed 1%. 4th if necessary
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
When it comes to building a bridge, we don't assume the loads are going to be what they should be according to today's traffic patterns. We don't assume the materials are going to be as strong as the supplier promises they are. We don't assume our construction crews are always infallible. When it comes to an existential threat, the applied margins insist we should assume American BMD is stronger than they show, wider and more numerous than suggested. We should also assume our tools are not as capable as they are specified. All within reason of course but our definitions of precarious and what constitutes "enough" is totally worlds apart.

Getting these assumptions wrong isn't as bad as overbrewing your tea or even a bridge collapsing. It's your existence for eternity. The risks are very different and so it's truly beyond retarded to make those assumptions. Particularly 300 warheads is enough to deliver MAD upon China's main antagonists - USA AND western Europe.
 

FangYuan

Junior Member
Registered Member
China's military budget is more than $ 170 billion. But it works really well? Certainly, if the United States had to choose to attack Russia or China, it would choose to attack China.

With a military budget of $ 40 billion and a tenth of the money ($ 4 billion) spent on maintaining 5,000 warheads is more efficient than spending $ 170 billion on the military, but you only have 300 warheads
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Anyone who thinks 200 warheads is enough should read this:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

TLDR
Nuclear bombs aren’t as powerful as people thought they are. Multiple bombs are needed to actually destroy a large city. Once you add military targets and civilian production centres as well, thounds of warheads are actually needed to destroy a large country.


The existence of missile defence greatly complicated the calculation. THAAD in Korea may not be able to intercept Chinese ICBM’s, but they can provide early warning and flight paths to NMD in Alaska which should increase their interception chances greatly.

If US launches a first strike against China’s nuclear arsenal and China only has 200 warheads, how many will survive the first strike? Given the chance of duds, misfires, interceptions, off course flight path, etc, how many warheads (if any survived) will reach US in the retaliatory strike?

Chinese leaderships aren’t idiots.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
And not all 300 supposed warheads would be MT city killer yields which require pretty much an entire ICBM/SLBM.

Most missiles that can reach US and western Europe will probably be MIRVed KT warhead carriers. 300 is basically just enough to cover all of western Europe and the main population areas of the US. So the assumptions here are that Chinese early warning will 100% work well with 100% accuracy (lol no way) + few if any Chinese missiles will malfunction (again no way all missiles and warheads have some failures) + few if any missiles will be intercepted. Again that's funny given how many THAAD units may be sitting between Korea and New York along with the hundreds upon hundreds of SM-3 missiles in between and God knows what else they have under wraps.

If there is a successful first strike by US and allies, how many of those 300 warheads and missiles carrying them will remain?

Is precarious fair enough a word to describe the situation?

Now consider how cheap and easy it is for China to have a retaliation stockpile that's around 1000 warheads with the range, penetration, and survivability for US and western Europe. I don't see why it is the CCP won't at least have this basic deterrence. I would imagine it's far stronger in reality than a puny 1000 warheads considering the costs are relatively low.

I still haven't heard what the benefits of having a lower stockpile are. I imagine it's because they are realistically unsound and thoroughly unconvincing when you weight the costs.
 

totenchan

New Member
Registered Member
I understand this debate has been quite the topic in China as well recently and created a lot of controversy but I'll address your points.

1. I do realise nukes are stronger so what though? 300 isn't enough when some might fail, many will get intercepted, and a huge portion will get destroyed in first strike. We're talking a retaliation to first strike assuming early warning fails to get all missiles into the air.

2. No I don't think they'll tolerate hundreds of cities lost (they don't have hundreds of cities <1M population anyway) but that's not what's being talked about. I believe it takes thousands of warheads of achieve this. With 300, China would be lucky to take a few cities.

3. Because MAD calls for all associated stakeholders to be dragged in. It's principle. If all missiles are on the US, what if US government commands are actually originating elsewhere? What if the US is just the henchman? Europe is not a lesser antagonist and involving them also ensures they are responsible for preventing their "allies" from launching first strikes. MAD works with some nuance. Not only is "outside" parties involved, but they are all stakeholders because when one dies, all die with them and that principle prevents first use or at least gives consequence to third parties in an effort to get them involved in actively pursuing de-escalation.

4. Survivable second strike is good enough?? lol come on. It's never even been tried and thank God. How could one who "knows what they're talking about" seriously even entertain a flimsy theory like that as if it's 100% solid.

5. Dude please. I understand the nuances of no first use. Instead of continuing to write "the no first use policy is based on rock solid strategic reasoning that you would understand if you read anything about it" why don't you actually explain it so that we can pick it apart slowly. Why is no first use solid strategy in the context of providing superior deterrence?

6. I explained why having a small stockpile is stupid. You just said having more than 300 warheads is beyond retarded. Explain it like I explained my perspective.
I'll respond in good faith, since you seem to be doing the same.

1. Some missiles might fail, sure. Not many will get intercepted though, American homeland missile defense does not actually have the capabilities to do that considering that the GMD, the main system that will be doing the interception, has never been tested against MIRV'ed missiles. If Chinese missiles are deployed smartly, it's very unlikely that many of their mobile missiles get destroyed in a first strike, there's a good (though somewhat dated) paper by Glaser and Fetter that describes how difficult it would be to track hundreds of TELs moving through underground tunnels, though the liquid-fuelled DF-5s are likely impossible to defend. China's mobile ICBMs are very survivable, and if the silo'd ones move to launch-on-warning as is rumored to happen soon, that complicates the calculus even more.

2. Hundreds of cities aside, I highly doubt that US leadership would tolerate even ten cities lost in a retaliatory strike. A few cites make up that vast bulk of the US's economic potential, and if the US gets hit back, even if the country survives, it's unlikely to be relevant ever again.

3. My resistance to nuking Western Europe mainly stems from the assumption that China doesn't have extremely large reserves of spare ICBMs, but I don't think that assuming that the US would be the "henchman" in any situation involving Europe is realistic, especially when it comes to nukes. Because China has some shorter range missiles that can be equipped with nuclear missiles, I fully expect the US's Asian allies to be nuked, however, if it comes down to it.

4. Survivable second strike has never been tried? I'm sorry, but I don't see how that's a valid criticism, considering that a disarming first strike has also never been tried, and is by any metric far more difficult to pull off.

5. I've explained it before in this thread a while back, but the calculus of a no-first-use policy is that discarding the ability to strike first both hugely lessens the requirements for the nuclear arsenal, but also contributes to strategic stability and the possibility of an arms race. Chinese nuclear doctrine was created when the US and the Soviet Union were deep into an arms race, which had hugely damaging impacts on either country's human development and economy, and China, more specifically Mao, decided that it never wanted to be party to an arms race. A no-first-use policy does not provide equal deterrence in non-nuclear issues, for obvious reasons. However, assuming that the country in question has credible second strike capabilities, the deterrence provided in terms of a first nuclear attack would be identical to a strategy like the the Americans have. Put quite simply, the no-first-use strategy detracts nothing from deterrence from nuclear blackmail, compared to a "traditional" nuclear strategy, while providing large benefits.

7. Having a massive stockpile is not only relatively pointless, considering that only a fraction of that number is required to have deterrence, but also hugely costly to maintain and upgrade. Probably most importantly, it also invites arms racing, which is what happened between the US and the Soviet Union. If you don't believe that a few hundred warheads is enough to provide a reliable deterrence, due to issues like missile defense, it can justifiably be expanded, but you seem to have a far higher opinion of the US's missile defense then anyone I've met.
 

Nobonita Barua

Senior Member
Registered Member
I'll respond in good faith, since you seem to be doing the same.

1. Some missiles might fail, sure. Not many will get intercepted though, American homeland missile defense does not actually have the capabilities to do that considering that the GMD, the main system that will be doing the interception, has never been tested against MIRV'ed missiles.
Let's not forget the patriot super system, which totally destroyed the most advanced, MaRVed, MIRVed "stealth" Houthi missiles fired towards KSA.


Noo?? :(:(
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
I'll respond in good faith, since you seem to be doing the same.

I am although I must admit I was a little annoyed earlier and probably unfairly directed "beyond retarded" on you and sinophilia. But let me address your points with my opinions with more civility.

1. Some missiles might fail, sure. Not many will get intercepted though, American homeland missile defense does not actually have the capabilities to do that considering that the GMD, the main system that will be doing the interception, has never been tested against MIRV'ed missiles. If Chinese missiles are deployed smartly, it's very unlikely that many of their mobile missiles get destroyed in a first strike, there's a good (though somewhat dated) paper by Glaser and Fetter that describes how difficult it would be to track hundreds of TELs moving through underground tunnels, though the liquid-fuelled DF-5s are likely impossible to defend. China's mobile ICBMs are very survivable, and if the silo'd ones move to launch-on-warning as is rumored to happen soon, that complicates the calculus even more.

I don't think anyone here knows for sure how capable American BMD truly is. It could surprise us all with how pathetic or effective it is. Therefore it would be sensible to be more cautious while trying to ascertain details via studiously conducted intelligence gathering. It's also better to be prepared in developing increasingly penetrative and survivable delivery systems. There is no loss here since the arms race is happening anyway and so they need to be done regardless.

Nike programs and its predecessors have been impressive. Maybe successor BMD programs are far more effective against smaller and weaker nuclear powers but the threat should be respected.

Likely impossible to defend against to me doesn't sound good enough considering the price to pay for getting it wrong. Does it cost China that much just to expand their entire retaliation fleet from say 300 to say 1000? Maybe the economic optimal isn't that proportional increase, but whatever it is, that's where it should ideally be as opposed to remaining with 300 total warheads.

2. Hundreds of cities aside, I highly doubt that US leadership would tolerate even ten cities lost in a retaliatory strike. A few cites make up that vast bulk of the US's economic potential, and if the US gets hit back, even if the country survives, it's unlikely to be relevant ever again.

Sure but what if it comes down to that? It's not a matter of whether or not leaders have an appetite for this or that. It also assumes US political leadership is truly transparent, honest, and remains predictable in behaviour. None of these assumptions are sound.

3. My resistance to nuking Western Europe mainly stems from the assumption that China doesn't have extremely large reserves of spare ICBMs, but I don't think that assuming that the US would be the "henchman" in any situation involving Europe is realistic, especially when it comes to nukes. Because China has some shorter range missiles that can be equipped with nuclear missiles, I fully expect the US's Asian allies to be nuked, however, if it comes down to it.

Of course but I believe letting Europe go un-nuked in such a scenario where both North America and Asia are gone is bad out of principle. It's up to "us" to make them invested in preserving our survival. That's a small part of Cold War MAD anyway. To build a small model, let's say a hypothetical world where three main independent competing groups exist constantly fighting over finite resources. If group A and group B kill other off, group C inherits all the resources. In principle, it is in group C's interest to seek this path. Of course in real life, there are many more complexities and reasons why Europe obviously won't like such a devastating outcome but just out of pure principle on these two points, they ought to be destroyed in MAD. Especially when we also consider how Europe is often partly responsible for such a situation.

Also how does anyone know for sure that US policy isn't being at least partially directed from western Europe?

4. Survivable second strike has never been tried? I'm sorry, but I don't see how that's a valid criticism, considering that a disarming first strike has also never been tried, and is by any metric far more difficult to pull off.

I was questioning your faith in survivable second strike being a guaranteed option that is effective. It is not because it's purely theoretical and there's no way the CCP can have such a close understanding of Russia's dead hand system.

5. I've explained it before in this thread a while back, but the calculus of a no-first-use policy is that discarding the ability to strike first both hugely lessens the requirements for the nuclear arsenal, but also contributes to strategic stability and the possibility of an arms race. Chinese nuclear doctrine was created when the US and the Soviet Union were deep into an arms race, which had hugely damaging impacts on either country's human development and economy, and China, more specifically Mao, decided that it never wanted to be party to an arms race. A no-first-use policy does not provide equal deterrence in non-nuclear issues, for obvious reasons. However, assuming that the country in question has credible second strike capabilities, the deterrence provided in terms of a first nuclear attack would be identical to a strategy like the the Americans have. Put quite simply, the no-first-use strategy detracts nothing from deterrence from nuclear blackmail, compared to a "traditional" nuclear strategy, while providing large benefits.

Second strike means you need more warheads and delivery systems around than having first strike policy intact. You cannot possibly have less nukes to use in first strike while you can potentially have no nukes left with second strike. I feel this particular point is going to derail the main discussion here. My point is to say there are very few benefits in terms of having a stronger deterrence and ability to conduct second strike with a no first use policy. They rarely affect each other i.e. having no first use policy DOESN'T mean you have a stronger ability to respond to a first strike. It also doesn't further deter others from conducting first strike. It's advantages are mostly political in nature.

7. Having a massive stockpile is not only relatively pointless, considering that only a fraction of that number is required to have deterrence, but also hugely costly to maintain and upgrade. Probably most importantly, it also invites arms racing, which is what happened between the US and the Soviet Union. If you don't believe that a few hundred warheads is enough to provide a reliable deterrence, due to issues like missile defense, it can justifiably be expanded, but you seem to have a far higher opinion of the US's missile defense then anyone I've met.

1000 warheads isn't a massive stockpile by my definition. It would be less than 1/5 of Russia's and US stockpile. If that's considered massive then US and Russian stockpiles should be called criminally unholy. China isn't UK where it has a beast backing it and no real enemies that would even consider first strike on it unless the world is going into total nuclear exchange. China is constantly threatened by criminally unholy warhead horders who have waged literally dozens of wars and murdered millions in the last century. Actual facts, not fabricated BS like millions of non-existant Uighurs or millions of student protestors. So I would imagine at least having 1/5 that warhead count is the bare minimum in a life insurance policy.
 
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