Bison / J-7 questions

Been reading about India's air forces Bisons and how well they did against F-15/16s and was wondering how does China's F-7 (Fishbed) compare to the Bison upgrade? I always liked small low cost single engine fighters that packs a punch like a PL-12 /AA-12?

Also does the PLAF use their F-7 (Mig-21) like India's air force does team with their Flankers? Or would they use J-8Ds or J-8II (which ever is their best) be team up with Flankers?

Do Chinese fighter and attack aircraft have data links? I guess what I'm trying to say badly is can a Chinese Flanker flying say a hundred and twenty miles from a target pass off that information to a shooter flying closer? To a J-7 or J-8D to take the shot flying with their radar off?

Thanks

nonpilot said:

Been reading about India's air forces Bisons and how well they did against F-15/16s and was wondering how does China's F-7 (Fishbed) compare to the Bison upgrade? I always liked small low cost single engine fighters that packs a punch like a PL-12 /AA-12? Thanks

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The Indian MiG-21-93 (Bison) is probably better than the stanadard J-7's used by the PLAAF today. There are conflicting reports on its actual capability. For an example, ACIG claims that the Bison is equipped with the Phazotron-NIIR Kopyo-M radar with Ts501F digital processor, and can detect fighter sized targets at 72km distance in forward hemisphere, track 10 targets and engage 2.

And here we have a different report from aeronautics.ru:


"A prototype MAPO/ Sokol MiG-21-93 upgrade has shot down an aerial target with a beyond-visual-range Vympel RVV-AE missile (R-77/AA-12 Adder). The active radar-guided RVV-AE and Phazotron Kopyo (Spear) light-weight multimode radar are key elements of the MiG-21-93 upgrade being developed for Indian air force aircraft.

A subsonic target was destroyed in a direct hit by the RVV-AE, which was fitted with a telemetry package in place of the warhead. The launch was made at 12km (6nm) in a head-on engagement. The target was at 20,000ft (6,100m) and the fighter at 13,000ft. The test was intended to include two firings, the second with in armed missile, but its launch was cancelled following destruction of the target.

The Kopyo radar has a 57km detection range against a 5 m^2 (54ft^2) radar cross section, or fighter-sized target. It can track eight targets and shoot at two simultaneously. A target shoot down using the Vympel R-73 (AA- 11 Archer) infrared-guided short-range air-to-air missile was completed in April. Test firings of the Vympel R-27 (AA-10 Alamo) semi-active radar air-to-air missile and Zvezda Kh-25MP (AS-12 Kegler) antiradar missile are planned.

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As for small jets that pack a big punch, try the Yak/AEM-130. Probably one of the most heavily armed trainer jets I've seen:

As for small jets that pack a big punch, try the Yak/AEM-130. Probably one of the most heavily armed trainer jets I've seen:
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Can the YAK-130 be armed with AA-12? I didn't see that on the web page but I guess a software upgrade would fix that. Wow looks like a winner have they sold any yet? Did a quick search but didn't come up with anything only a order from Russia's air force which could be paper or real, you never know.

Back to the thread
Would China's air force use their J-8s like India might use the Mig-21 Bisons?

As the Bison's size is similar to that of the J-7C/D, which was complained about for its poor manuverability, I'd guess that the J-7E/G will outfight it in a dogfight.(Especially when it can't fly far.) The Bison is capable of launching BVRAAMs, but at much shorter ranges, just beyond BVR range I think.

But its radar is also able to conduct ARM attacks.

The rumor is now that the J-7Gs might be able to launch PL-11s/12s, in which case I'd pick the J-7G.

What about the MiG-21-2000?

I would think the avionic suite on the most recent J-7 and bison are probably comparable, but the radar on bison should be slightly better (or maybe not). The only difference is that bison can fire R-77 and also has IRST. If plaaf bothers to give J-7 BVR capability, it should be able to achieve similar results. I know people would say that bison has RAM coating and such, but all of CAC's current stealth testing was originally done on J-7.

nonpilot said:

Been reading about India's air forces Bisons and how well they did against F-15/16s and was wondering how does China's F-7 (Fishbed) compare to the Bison upgrade?

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I would favor the Bison for its BVR capability and having those R-73s in close range. The J-7E/G may be more maneuverable however, but it may not be enough.

I always liked small low cost single engine fighters that packs a punch like a PL-12 /AA-12?

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Despite all the wish thinking, the J-7G's radar is too small to support something like the PL-12 effectively. Not enough radar size and power for a good range and lacking enough space for components to add more functions. What the J-7G has is basically a dogfight radar with a search mode.

If China had continue to manufacture the J-7D instead, that plane's nose would be big enough to host a radar as big as the Kopyo's, or for that matter, the FC-1's.

Also does the PLAF use their F-7 (Mig-21) like India's air force does team with their Flankers? Or would they use J-8Ds or J-8II (which ever is their best) be team up with Flankers?

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Hard to say but I can't imagine why they won't. Most certainly there is coordination between the different types.

Do Chinese fighter and attack aircraft have data links?

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Yes.

I guess what I'm trying to say badly is can a Chinese Flanker flying say a hundred and twenty miles from a target pass off that information to a shooter flying closer? To a J-7 or J-8D to take the shot flying with their radar off?

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No.

well, if we are talking the MOST modern j-7, it would be the j-7fs 2(technical demonstrater, noy in service). that definitely has a nose large enought to house a faurly large and powerful radar, much more powerful than the bisons. does anyone know what radar it feilds?

it still retains the manuverability and advanced avionics of its predecessors

Very intersting.We chinese army did not use such plane as j-7 a/b/c/d,or we don't call them like that.

In PLAAF there are j-7 I/II/III/E/G.The j-7 I/II are based on mig-21-f13,j-7 III are based on mig-21bs,j-7 E/G are designed by ourselves.The j-7 a/b/m/mg/p/pg are used for oversea users.

Not like India airforce,we only use j-7 as combat air craft.Our J-7 are more agile than their mig-21(Because our plane is based on mig-21-f13,their plane is based on mig-21 bs).All the j-7s have no BVR capablity,but they can fire pl-5/7/8/9 A-A missiles.And recently we armed them with helmet sights.So I believe that those planes can might(not will) f-16 in dogfight.

crobato said:

I would favor the Bison for its BVR capability and having those R-73s in close range. The J-7E/G may be more maneuverable however, but it may not be enough.

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I would disagree with you on the one point here. I think the PL-8B/PL-9C is better than R-73 (at least the earlier models). The developers said that much better electronics were used to develop better ECM capability on PL-9C. And also, PL-9C inherited all the traits of R-73 like HMS and off-boresight capability. The only thing it really lacks is an imaged infrared seeker.

Bison........HA

you people DO realize that the Kopyo cost as much as the fully fitted airframe itself, right? Plus the thing flies like a pig.

As for PL-9C, not having IIR is absolutely horrible. ECM doesn't figure much into a purely infra red seeker armed missile, it's all about the flares.