battle for Changsa,1939

solarz

solarz

Brigadier
lightspeed said:
you should read your own posts first before criticizing me. this thread is about the battle of Changsha 1939 and you had written nothing related to the thread.

Chiang and Kuomintang had to concede to the Japanese's demands then to buy time to prepare for the eventual long war against the Japanese. the Soviets like the Japanese wanted to advance imperialist interests in China. the Chinese Communist Party owed its allegiance to Stalin and the Soviet Union so the CCP deserved to be crushed by the KMT then. why are you so dumb not to understand this simple facts ?
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ROFL......

Discussing tangentiary topics is not against forum rules. Deliberately stirring up political debate is. So is making personal attacks.
 
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Geographer

Geographer

Junior Member
Chiang forced the battle at Shanghai because he thought he could grind down the Japanese there. Instead, he lost his most elite divisions and directly led to the Nanjing Massacre. In the end, China lost more than Japan in the Battle of Shanghai. That is *NOT* what I'd call competence!
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How do modern historians view Chiang's decision to commit everything to Shanghai? In retrospect it was a mistake but given when Chiang knew at the time, it seems reasonable.

I am not an expert in the Sino-Japanese War, but from my perspective, Chiang Kai-Shek had two options in fighting Japan. One was a scorched Earth policy of endless retreat and resistance. The second was to score a decisive battle against Japan that would halt their invasion. The Soviet Union faced a similar threat in 1941 when Germany invaded. Stalin ordered every Soviet soldier to fight to the death--and they did. The USSR took huge losses, such as 700,000 (43 divisions) killed or capture at the Battle of Kiev, but delayed the German advance from taking Moscow before winter. The few Soviet units that were allowed to retreat were ordered to burn everything.

China didn't have the advantage of a hard winter to slow down its invaders. If Chiang was going to continually retreat, then it would mean giving up the major popular and industrial centers of the Yangtze river delta. If you're going to set up a decisive battle, what better place to do it than Shanghai where you can count on a large, friendly population to keep your troops resupplied and aid in the house-to-house fighting? Granted, it's by the sea so vulnerable to Japanese naval attack. Shanghai and all the surrounding cities including the capital of Nanjing were worth fighting for. What's the point in having an army if all you do is retreat?
 
Equation

Equation

Lieutenant General
Geographer said:
How do modern historians view Chiang's decision to commit everything to Shanghai? In retrospect it was a mistake but given when Chiang knew at the time, it seems reasonable.

I am not an expert in the Sino-Japanese War, but from my perspective, Chiang Kai-Shek had two options in fighting Japan. One was a scorched Earth policy of endless retreat and resistance. The second was to score a decisive battle against Japan that would halt their invasion. The Soviet Union faced a similar threat in 1941 when Germany invaded. Stalin ordered every Soviet soldier to fight to the death--and they did. The USSR took huge losses, such as 700,000 (43 divisions) killed or capture at the Battle of Kiev, but delayed the German advance from taking Moscow before winter. The few Soviet units that were allowed to retreat were ordered to burn everything.

China didn't have the advantage of a hard winter to slow down its invaders. If Chiang was going to continually retreat, then it would mean giving up the major popular and industrial centers of the Yangtze river delta. If you're going to set up a decisive battle, what better place to do it than Shanghai where you can count on a large, friendly population to keep your troops resupplied and aid in the house-to-house fighting? Granted, it's by the sea so vulnerable to Japanese naval attack. Shanghai and all the surrounding cities including the capital of Nanjing were worth fighting for. What's the point in having an army if all you do is retreat?
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Because it probably has to do a lot more about the surrounding terrain. A higher ground much more important than a lower on in military perspective regardless if it's a city, town, or military base. The higher ground provides better artillery placements and view of enemy activities and such. The difference between Shanghai and Stalingrad is that the former Soviet Union has a manufacture that can churn out weapons while grinding it out with the Germans waiting for the opportune moment to strike back, China meanwhile didn't have that luxury.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Cut the ideological/political debate and accusations...on either side.

Post relevant, specific military historical information about this battle.

Lightspeed, you are relatively new here. Read the forum rules and do not let your particular ideological bias bleed over into your posts. We do not allow that on either side of the discussion.

Any more of this will lead to suspensions and the thread being closed.

DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MODERATION
 
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