AUKUS News, Views, Analysis.

Lethe

Captain
Coalition points to next-generation stealth bombers as potential AUKUS stopgap

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Reviewing Senator Paterson's
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and subsequent
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that are the basis for the above ABC story, I think that he makes a number of legitimate points, albeit within a broader framework (i.e. "all the way with USA") with which I fundamentally disagree.

Paterson evidently perceives that the Australian submarine transition as it is currently structured under the government's "optimal pathway" -- Collins LOTE, Virginia transfers, SSN-AUKUS -- faces serious challenges. Paterson explicitly frames the B-21 Raider as filling a potential capability gap that may emerge if AUKUS does not run to schedule. The notion that AUKUS may not run to schedule is itself a significant concession from the Shadow Minister for Defence, particularly given that he is otherwise clearly pro-AUKUS and so cannot be dismissed as merely noise as so many AUKUS skeptics have been.

Paterson suggests the acquisition of B-21 Raider as a long-range strike platform as an effective if partial complement to the strike capabilities provided by SSNs. The desire to operate in China's near abroad, and to hold Chinese assets at risk there, is a consistent through-line in many of the discussions about ongoing and potential Australian defence acquisitions. Notably, Paterson asserts that "our primary security threat is not an invasion of our homeland. It is coercion leveraging our supply chain vulnerabilities." One might inquire at this juncture just how effective America's strategic bomber and submarine inventories have been at shielding the nation from supply chain disruptions, but nonetheless this point goes to the broader debate about the relative weight that is assigned to strategically defensive capabilities in our near-abroad, and strategically offensive capabilities aimed at shaping adversary behaviour at a distance.

Paterson acknowledges that there is perhaps a more obvious Plan B, but rejects it:

I do not agree with the harshest AUKUS critics who believe the Virginia Class Submarines will never arrive, or that there are simple and easy alternatives to just purchase “off the shelf”.

There is no special aisle at Aldi where you can just pick up a submarine on a dry-dock that was built without an order, just hoping for a buyer.

Nor do I believe that we can responsibly and sustainably pursue a “plan B” alternative submarine.

We are flat out procuring nuclear-propelled submarines as it is – we can’t simultaneously pursue any more alternatives.

As this strikes at the heart of what I believe we should be doing at the present moment, I feel compelled to push back against this argument. The practical implementation of a Plan B submarine acquisition would arise from similar circumstances and proceed along same the lines as our recent acquisition of Mogami-class frigates. Consider the timeline:

April 2023: Defence Strategic Review articulates need for Tier 2 surface combatant program to supplement existing Hobart-class destroyers and Hunter-class frigate program.
February 2024: Enhanced Lethality Surface Combatant Fleet analysis published that identifies four contenders for Tier 2 frigate program: Mogami, Meko A-200, Navantia ALFA3000, Daegu II/III.
November 2024: Downselect to two contenders: Mogami and Meko A-200.
August 2025: Evolved Mogami-class frigate selected as Australia's new frigate.
April 2026: Contract signed with Mitsubishi Heavy Industries for initial three frigates, first to be delivered to RAN in 2029 with all three operational by 2034.

So, three years from articulation of requirement to contract, six and one-half years from articulation of requirement to first delivery. That's how fast one can move when the requirement is clearly discerned and pursued, and when production of a mature design occurs at a foreign shipyard with a proven record of delivery.

Those characteristics would necessarily be shared with any Plan B submarine acquisition program. Construction in Australia would be off the table. Only minimal design changes absolutely necessary for Australian operation would be entertained. The leading contenders for such a contract would probably be Japan's Taegei-class or South Korea's Jang Yeongsil-class (KSS-III Batch II) SSKs. In relation to Canada's future submarine requirement, Hanwha Ocean shipbuilding
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that if contracted by 2026, the first four boats can be delivered at a rate of one per year from 2032. Of course Australia has yet to even discern a requirement for such a boat, so any such procurement would take time to work through the system even if pursued with even greater alacrity than the Tier 2 frigate was, as it should be. Nonetheless, this suggests that deliveries of new SSKs to Australia should be possible from the mid-2030s, i.e. the same general timeframe in which we are currently planning to receive Virginia-class submarines. If Paterson is worried about those boats potentially being pushed back, as well he should be, the case becomes even more favourable. Of course it would've been much better to have embarked upon such a procurement at least several years ago, but such is the legacy that successive Coalition and now Labor governments have bequeathed to us.

Given that the United States Navy clearly requires each and every SSN it can get its hands on, I think one can plausible argue, adopting for the sake of argument the thoroughly establishment perspective of Australia as a valued ally of the United States who seeks to do everything to maximise our combined capabilities against the threat of China, that we have a positive obligation to pursue an alternative acquisition strategy, rather than seeking to deprive the Americans of scarce assets that they can ill-afford to part with. X number of American SSNs plus Y number of modern Australian SSKs are collectively superior to that same number of American SSNs split between USN and RAN.

In making the case for the consideration of B-21 Raider, Paterson acknowledges risks to AUKUS only in the delivery of Virginia-class SSNs to Australia. The virtue of a Plan B submarine acquisition is that it not only relieves pressure in relation to that aspect of AUKUS, but it does so also in relation to the sustainment and credibility of our existing Collins-class submarine capability, and also the development and production schedule of SSN-AUKUS. The current optimal pathway has the first SSN-AUKUS boat delivered to Australia in 2042 with subsequent boats following on at three-year intervals. With a half-dozen e.g. KSS-IIIs in the inventory, we could be much more sanguine about the entirely realistic prospect that both the delivery date of the first SSN-AUKUS and the delivery cadence of subsequent boats will fall short of those goals. Indeed, I suspect that a major unspoken argument against an acquisition of this nature is that it would open the door to scaling back our commitment to SSN-AUKUS. While I would not necessarily advocate for that in the present context, it would surely be useful for a future government of the day to have that option if circumstances warrant.
 
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Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
Aukus was never about submarines for australia. It was and is about bases and infrastructure for US assets in Australia. That can be US subs but it can also be US b21 based in Australia. so what better than having Australia ready made infrastructure and logistical ecosystem for b21? sure, a few Australian b21 could benefit from it. But so could dozens of US b21.
 

Halcyon66

New Member
Registered Member
Aukus was about Australia paying the US to build subs for the US. Worst mil deal in Australian history. Now that is going south, we can now buy b-21's off the US, they cannot make them either. Funny the coalition was the party that pushed us into the Aukus disaster, now they want to push us into another one.

Good thing is it will never happen, just wondering how the gov will back out of it.

We have Tindal built for the US as well, and again that requires approval from Indo for flyovers which is never going to happen.

All pointless to protect us from our biggest trading partner?????

Least the narrative is starting to wane finally.

And the funny part,

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So the Subs could be pointless ianyway.

Regards,
 
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Lethe

Captain
Aukus was never about submarines for australia. It was and is about bases and infrastructure for US assets in Australia. That can be US subs but it can also be US b21 based in Australia. so what better than having Australia ready made infrastructure and logistical ecosystem for b21? sure, a few Australian b21 could benefit from it. But so could dozens of US b21.

That's certainly a major part of it both from Washington's perspective, and that of the political and security establishments in Canberra that contrived to create AUKUS -- not least of all because the boundaries between the two can be rather porous and indistinct. As some of my previous posts on the subject will attest, I'm certainly aware that there is a broader and deeper story here than the procedural details of a proposed submarine acquisition program. Nonetheless, it is useful to engage with AUKUS on its own terms (e.g. Virginia-class delivery schedules in the context of asserted benchmarks and US Navy requirements) not least of all because those are the terms on which the enterprise is likely to succeed or fail, and because they provide a basis to converse with those with very different perspectives. Regrettably, Paul Keating, Malcolm Turnbull, Peter Briggs and Hugh White are not coming to save us. Nor, apparently, are Donald Trump or Elbridge Colby inclined to do so.
 
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Lethe

Captain
Just consider the billions paid by the Aussies as protection money and pork barrel for local interest groups.

The money is a distinctly tertiary concern. Our submarine capability and the associated schedules matter. The fact that we wasted at least the entirety of the 2010s (if not also the later 2000s and extending to the present day) without meaningful, deliverable investment in an allegedly critical next-generation submarine capability matters. The basing of U.S. forces in Australia matters. The implications of AUKUS for Australian sovereignty and for Australia's capacity to avoid entanglement in a potential conflict with China matters. The money doesn't really matter.

AUKUS back-up plan not on cards for Japanese PM visit

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Despite my low opinion of the Albanese government in continuing with AUKUS, I would still be surprised if there had not been at least some thought given and inquiries quietly made as to the availability and schedule of at least a potential Japanese sub build, if not from other prospective vendors such as Korea or Germany also, as a hedge against the potential non-availability of Virginia-class SSNs and shortfalls in Collins LOTE schedule and capability. After all, anticipating and preparing for even improbable adverse scenarios is the basic remit of the Defence Department. The failure of AUKUS as it is currently structured is clearly at least a thinkable prospect, even for its supporters. The extensive contacts we have had with the Japanese government these past few years in relation to the new frigate program and broader national security matters suggests that there is at least an open channel for such inquiries to be quietly made, and I would be surprised if they had not been, at least on a hypothetical basis. At the same time, you wouldn't expect that anyone from either government would speak of it publicly unless and until discussions moved beyond the hypothetical.

P.S. In my previous post, I accidentally linked to the wrong article re: Hanwha Ocean proposed delivery schedule for KSS-III Batch II boats for Canada. This schedule is actually described on Hanwha Ocean's
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for its Canadian pitch:

Hanwha Ocean has the fastest delivery schedule for CPSP, able to deliver four KSS-III submarines to fully replace Canada’s current Victoria Class fleet before 2035 if on contract in 2026 (the first delivered by 2032). Earlier retirement of the Victoria Class fleet will result in estimated savings of approximately $1 Billion on maintenance and support costs. The additional 8 submarines can be delivered at a rate of one per year, meaning the entire fleet of 12 submarines will be delivered to Canada by 2043. No other option can come anywhere close to this delivery schedule.
 
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Lethe

Captain
The earliest date I can find for when the transfer of Virginia-class submarines to Australia was first contemplated is May 2021. That date is given in James Curran's Questioning AUKUS
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published in July 2024 in the Australian Financial Review, and appears to be based on an interview with former Prime Minister Scott Morrison, under whom AUKUS was created:

In March 2021, Biden’s then Indo-Pacific policy chief, Kurt Campbell, and national security adviser Jake Sullivan saw a chance for American influence to shape the outcome of the AUKUS agreement towards their own interests. The working hypothesis then, however, was still for Australia to gain a British nuclear submarine. But the bottom line was that these US officials in all likelihood had a better informed and more realistic appraisal of the British shipbuilding industry’s situation that enabled them to understand the problems facing Australia’s nuclear submarine force [....] But one fact is clear. What evaporated at this moment was the chance for Australia to make the case for constructing a new conventional submarine to provide for the transition to nuclear submarines. In May 2021, Washington intervened: it would provide Virginia-class submarines for the transition to SSN AUKUS. According to Morrison, their line was “‘You know what? We might want to be an option here.’”

May 2021 aligns with the date Andrew Fowler gives in Nuked for a crucial meeting in Washington between Andrew Shearer, then Director-General of Australia's Office of National Intelligence, and Biden administration officials Jake Sullivan and Kurt Campbell. AUKUS was publicly unveiled in September 2021.

USN's
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were also published in May 2021. Those estimates contain projected delivery dates for Virginia-class SSNs through -809, that boat then being projected to deliver in May 2029. The latest
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have SSN-809 being delivered in July 2032, 38 months later than was anticipated in May 2021. For perspective, consider that the latest estimates have only SSNs up to -803 being delivered by end 2029. That is to say, USN now expects to have at least six fewer Virginia-class SSNs come the end of this decade than it expected to have back in May 2021, when the prospect of transferring boats to Australia was apparently first floated.

....

In their
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, Sam Roggeveen and Hugh White discuss Senator James Paterson's notion of Australia acquiring B-21 Raider. White notes that, beyond the merits (or lack thereof) of his proposed solution, Paterson's speech is politically significant in admitting to serious risks in the current AUKUS schedule.
 
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vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
The money is a distinctly tertiary concern. Our submarine capability and the associated schedules matter. The fact that we wasted at least the entirety of the 2010s (if not also the later 2000s and extending to the present day) without meaningful, deliverable investment in an allegedly critical next-generation submarine capability matters. The basing of U.S. forces in Australia matters. The implications of AUKUS for Australian sovereignty and for Australia's capacity to avoid entanglement in a potential conflict with China matters. The money doesn't really matter.
Maybe Aussies should first answer the question who you consider to be your enemies, why they are your enemies and how you plan to fight them.
 
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