Amnesty - China arms sales 'fuel conflicts'

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FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
Kampfwagen said:
My question is this: Where as Amnesty international been for the last...well...all of human history? Organizations like Amnesty are nice ideas, but in many instances, their naiveity is something that can be incredibly annoying and unfortunate. The world will never be the bright, shiny peaceful place they want. As long as we are human beings, there will always be gritty, nasty things that happen between each other, and weapons trades are only the tip of a muddy iceberg.

Amnesty and the other organisations hold out an ideal that we should ALL
be striving for...the world would be a far nastier place if some humans
were not willing to set aside their own selfish wishes.

Ok they are idealists but they are promoting the best in humanity.
 
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Deleted member 675

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FreeAsia2000 said:
Amnesty and the other organisations hold out an ideal that we should ALL
be striving for...the world would be a far nastier place if some humans
were not willing to set aside their own selfish wishes.

Ok they are idealists but they are promoting the best in humanity.

As I said before, this isn't airy-fairy "let's be nice to each other" stuff. It is also about money. Wars and conflict has a destabilising effect that costs the global economy big-time.
 

Kampfwagen

Junior Member
Don't get me wrong, I dont advocate the practice, but it seems kinda wrong to single out a nation for something that almost all lead nations have been doing for years. (I would say industrial, but this practice has been going on before industry)

Of course war takes a big chunk out of the global economy. Costs of conflict (such as buying bombs and the like) and a halt of trade. But what we are talking about would not have too much of an effect on the global economy, only money for China from weapons sales and territory/information or some other end. Most of these sorts of things happen in the third world, less economicaly important nations, unless a major world power (such as the U.S) decides to intervine. Or one nation decides not to trade for whatever reason with another because they dont suppourt a war. Usualy this is not so bad unless it is something really important like Oil or if other nations decide to buddy up with the country protesting.

But, I ramble. I am sure you know this and probably more correctly than I do. World Economics mostly escape me, but I know for the most part (I hope) how the whole arms trade thing works.
 

The_Zergling

Junior Member
Kampfwagen said:
Don't get me wrong, I dont advocate the practice, but it seems kinda wrong to single out a nation for something that almost all lead nations have been doing for years. (I would say industrial, but this practice has been going on before industry)

Well, it's not like AI has been playing favorites, it's just that China's arms trade activity has been more significant (or at least more noticeable) recently.

I posted something similiar to this some time ago, and since it's related to the topic I decided to share it.

Welcome to the Real World said:
Currently there appears to be a semi-official code of conduct, common themes including :

--Not selling weapons to non-democratic regimes, or human rights violators
--Not selling weapons that might help fuel an internal or external conflict
--Not selling weapons that would impede nation-development; increasing poverty

These seem to be relatively positive and simple guidelines. However, the world's major arms dealers have continued to sell arms to human rights violators. Why is this? Some reasons include:

--No common set of accepted global standards
--Different interpretation of the codes of conduct
--Corruption and pressure

So who has profited the most from the arms trade? Interestingly enough, the big winners are the five permanent members of the UN Security Council, France, Russia, China, UK, and the USA. The 5 countries combined are responsible for nearly 90 percent of known and reported conventional arms exports.

This quote by former President Jimmy Carter sums up this paradoxical situation,
“We can’t have it both ways. We can’t be both the world’s leading champion of peace and the world’s leading supplier of arms.”

So what has the Arms Control Campaign found out? First of all, there are legal loopholes that arms dealers can easily bypass, such as end-use limitations. Other ways including manufacturing arms in another country that does not have a ban. This is so easy because of the relative lack of accountability (and financial transparency)

Here are the basic rules. (I'll explain how they are demolished latter on.) To ensure that Arms authorized for export are delivered to the stated end user, as opposed to a human rights violator, most governments demand to see an end use certificate confirming this (by identifying where the weapons are going and for what purpose).

How to arms dealers bypass this and get weapons to most [read : any] client they want? For one thing, the licensing body doesn't have much power or ability at all. It is increasingly hard to verify an end-use certificate. What's more certificates are often obtained through corrupt channels. Either that or the information that the certificates state are simply false, or else the final destination stated is in fact merely a transit stop.

The final way to bypass (and probably one of the bigger operations) is simply to shift arms production to another country, to avoid national laws. For instance, the US government permits arms manufacturers to license the production of their arms and ammunition to other countries. Some of these countries have even weaker arms export regulations, greatly increasing the possibility of the arms being used to carry out atrocities, destroy livelihoods, etc.

Indeed, the Arms Trade Code of Conduct seems positive. After all, it prohibits military assistance and arms transfers to countries that do not respect human rights, engage in acts of armed aggresion, don't promote democracy, and do not participate in the UN Register of Conventional Arms.

However, there are loopholes. For instance, the code allows presidential exemptions based on either US national security interests or an external situation that requires the US to provide military assistance, or transfer arms. Congress does have the option to vote down any presidential waiver, provided there is a 2/3 majority vote against it.

Oftentimes arms contractors will maintain that in order to foster good relations with other countries and create more jobs at home, arms sales are essential to the well-being of a country.

However... when developing new weapons, the rationale used is that other countries have sophisticated weapons, and those weapons are often the same ones that these arms manufactors sold to them. This makes for a very convenient circular argument supporting the devopment and manufacturing of newer and more technologically advanced weapons.

And in addition, here's another hard fact of life. Painting other countries in an unfavorable light so you can sell even more arms to others does not (contrary to the opinions of the arms industry) foster good relations.

Oftentimes, manufacturing operations required for the weapons are actually moved abroad, and manufacturers will often point out that sales help create jobs. Obviously true, just in another nation.

Yeah, arms trade has been going on for centuries. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that China must follow the footsteps of the previous superpowers before who basically helped make the world the fucked up (political) way it is today.
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
I think it's a bit BS for them to complain about truck sales...

In terms of global arms trade, the most expensive items are usually the least threatening to people's lives. What kills more people than tanks and airplanes is cheap small arms. Assault rifles and pistols (not even heavy machineguns) are the #1 tool in killing people in conflicts around the world today.

There are all kinds of international agreements on restricting sale of technology relating to missiles and "weapons of mass destruction". But the reality is that AK-47's kill more people in a day than all the deaths from ballistic missiles (i.e. SCUD) used in Gulf War I.

Instead of complaining about trucks, they should be looking for arms merchants supplying third world conflicts with cheap small arms and ammunition.
 

pngwerume

New Member
When I saw this thread the day it was posted, I had to hold back from replying, but I am glad the general opinion is in line with my thinking. I don't support wars as much as I get fascinated by the ingenuity of weaponry.

Close to my heart is the West arming and supporting the Apartheid South African government – with even nuclear weapons.

The conflict in the DRC, with the US backing Uganda and Rwanda to invade and pillage another country – killings millions and displacing even more millions since 1998. Even fact this goes back 20-30 years earlier.

THIS IS HYPOCRISY. China is not something that ALL OF THEM ARE NOT DOING. If we are to address the problem (IT IS A PROBLEM THAT GENUINLY EXISTS), let us be even handed.
 
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Deleted member 675

Guest
pngwerume said:
THIS IS HYPOCRISY. China is not something that ALL OF THEM ARE NOT DOING. If we are to address the problem (IT IS A PROBLEM THAT GENUINLY EXISTS), let us be even handed.

How is it hypocritical of Amnesty International to complain? It complained about the UK selling hawk jets to Indonesia (if I remember correctly). No one gets let off.

Is this an interesting example of how some people associate all non-Chinese criticism of the PRC with Western governments?
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
I think that it some cases arms sales are both a valueable tool of state policy and can prevent war. For example, the United States used arms sales as a component of its containment strategy during the Cold War. And I think we can all agree that the containment and eventual fall of the Soviet Union was a good thing. The US also used arms sales to protect Israel, a democratic country with a good human rights record. Those sales might have saved the Jews from a second Holocaust. Secondly, think about how many wars that could start today are only prevented by the balance of power between the possible combatants. India-Pakistan, Taiwan-China, Korea, Turkey-Greece, Iran-US the list goes on and on. All of those countries have militaries made up mostly of foreign equipment. Lastly, think about how many of those countries would have atomic weaponry by now if they weren't satisfied with the conventional arms th

Look, I don't think we should be selling guns to everyone in th world, just making the point that this is a controversial issue.
 

pngwerume

New Member
FuManChu >>> I stand corrected. Amnesty International is NOT a Western government. My bad.

Finn McCool >>> My problem with "preventing communism" is/was it was done AT ALL COSTS with disregard of what the natives (I am talking of Africa here) wanted. And the dictators who safe guarded the Western values are people the West cannot face to admit that they put them in power.
 

Kampfwagen

Junior Member
Finn McCool: It was not just Africa. The Middle East (Iran, Afghanistan), and in South America and Asia. It was all over the place. The Soviets did their share too. Although I am sure you knew all about this, I feel it is important to show the scope instead of focusing on one area.

Adeptious: A good idea, but the arms sale is massive. There arent just stores where you can buy this sort of thing. In some nations, you can buy an AK-47 off of a street corner. In America, a 16 year old person could buy a 9MM handgun from a homless man on the street. An RPG from the Iraqi army can easily fall into the hands of an Insurgent, and a criminal with a buddy in the army can sell a few stolen weapons. It is just impossible to track these sorts of sales. Saturday Night Specials can be sold to anyone at any time, and can be practicaly anything. I remember seeing something where a drug-trafficer in Miami was offered a Submarine from the Soviet navy. When he asked the price, he was told "Is that with, or without Cruise Missiles?"

The Illegal Arms market is getting crazy now days.
 
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